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Countersteering confusion

13K views 67 replies 36 participants last post by  Dave_J  
#1 ·
I'm doing my best to educate myself to be a better rider. The author of the linked article seems to confirm what I've read regarding the proper way to countersteer. He is however convinced that the government is teaching riders wrong. It is a very long detailed article, but if it is correct, it could be great reference. I'm hoping some of our members that have a strong grasp of this will look it over and comment.
http://www.geocities.com/american_motor ... es.html#m1

Thanks
Steve
 
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#3 ·
Hey Jt, I notice many references to the "gubment" so I was taking it all with a grain of salt. I guess the bottom line was the info he had regarding countersteering correct or not. :?
 
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#4 ·
Press right, lean right, go right. Press left, lean left, go left. That's the mantra my MSF instructors chanted to us the entire time we were in class and on the bikes.
 
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#5 ·
Brewman said:
Press right, lean right, go right. Press left, lean left, go left. That's the mantra my MSF instructors chanted to us the entire time we were in class and on the bikes.
Yep, best and simplest explanation of countersteering there is. Works every time.

But don't forget to look left/right first. :)
 
#7 ·
Steve1948 said:
I'm doing my best to educate myself to be a better rider. The author of the linked article seems to confirm what I've read regarding the proper way to countersteer. He is however convinced that the government is teaching riders wrong. It is a very long detailed article, but if it is correct, it could be great reference. I'm hoping some of our members that have a strong grasp of this will look it over and comment.
http://www.geocities.com/american_motor ... es.html#m1

Thanks
Steve
THE MSF way of describing confused me too. The simple way of understanding it is that if you can make your bike go around corners, you are counter-steering! Counter-steering is the ONLY way to make a bike turn, if you can turn your doing it right :)
 
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#8 ·
I am a very logical person and there is something about "pushing" left (in essence turning right) to go left, just seems alien. :alien:
It obviously works but it just doesn't seem natural. I just need to practice it more and more.
 
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#9 ·
If it doesn't seem natural, you definitely need to practice it more. When you really need it, it needs to be second nature.

When I first started riding I'd pick arbitrary objects/spots on the road to (counter)steer around. You can also practice swerving in a big empty parking lot (early Sunday mornings are a good time).
 
#10 ·
There are several websites that offer explanations on why/how countersteering works. I believe it is true that if a m/c is moving at any faster than a couple mph, you cannot steer any other way.
Next time you're leisurely cruising along, just apply subtle pressure to one side of the handlebar, and you begin to lean that way, and then to drift the direction. Loosen back up, and you go back upright.

I took a course in bicycle riding thru the sheriff's office last summer- we patrol on bicycles and have to take (and Pass) the course prior to being allowed to ride the bikes on patrol. Part of this class was riding at very brisk speed, then having to make a sudden turn. We did this by countersteering- We'd ride at speed toward the instructor and without any warning at all, he indicate when to turn and in what direction. We were taught that to turn left, we'd press pretty hard left get in a lean, then jam the handlebars the other way. It was amazing how quickly the bike turned at speed.
Countersteering.

Somewhat off topic:

We also learned that we can ride at an amazingly slow speed by dragging the rear brake- when you have toe clips you don't want to take your feet off the pedals any more than necessary, espicially riding thru crowds and such.
The same trick works on the Burgman, you can drag the rear brake and use that to make a very tight U turn.

Another thing we had to do was to drive over obstacles, including up and down stairs, curbs and logs. There is a way to pop the front tire off the ground up to a foot and ride a "Wheelie" without pulling up on the handlebars. We had to then drive over 2 pallets that were stacked on top of each other.

Amazing class, and much of it applied in some way to motorcycles, as well as bicycles.
 
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#12 ·
Alladin said:
Hey Brewman,

Can you show us how to pop that wheelie on the Burgman? I think that would be a cool trick for a few of us to learn!
Yeah...you first. I'll watch. :lol:
 
#13 ·
The way to pop a wheelie on the bike was to shift into a lower gear, then STOMP down in the pedal with your strong leg while gently lifting the handlebars.

Maybe if the Burgman had pedals! :lol:

(It is just a MOPED, right?)

Or so say some.
 
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#14 ·
To turn a motorcycle at any speed greater than a walking speed (more or less), you MUST make the frame of the bike lean in the direction you want to go. To initiate that lean you can do what is commomly known as "countersteering" ( push right - go right or push left - go left). You don't have to push hard - just apply pressure. Another way is to just shift your weight in the direction you want to go by pushing down (applying your weight) to the right or left footpeg. Countersteering is the best way because it is a little more intuitive and the bike reacts more quickly which is very important when you have to make an evasive manuver or swerve quickly.
For example, for a right turn just apply some pressure to the right grip (press away from your body). If you could see it in slow motion you would see that, because by pressing on the right grip you are turning the front wheel to the left, the front wheel actually starts to turn to the left. As the wheel is turning left it causes the frame of the bike to start to lean to the right. When the frame starts to lean to the right, the front wheel quickly (almost impossible to see) turns back in the direction the frame is leaning and goes in the direction you want to go. Keep a steady pressure on the grip to complete the turn. To straighten the bike's direction or turn to the left just apply appropriate pressure to the left grip. The tighter the turn or the higher the speed the more lean is required thus more pressure in the direction you want to go.
We used to static demonstrate this in our MSF classes by having a student sit on a bike (motor off and both feet on the pegs) while one instructor held the bike upright and kept it steady from the rear. We would then have the student press on the right grip slowly so everyone could see how thw bike's front wheel would start to turn left and as the frame would lean to the right the front wheel would snap back to the right in the direction of the turn. That would make any of the skeptics believers.
Try it now while you're sitting at your computer. Sit up in your chair and hold out your arms with you hands on your imaginary grips. Now, start to press your right hand out away from your body (like you're turning the wheel to the left). You should be able to detect that your body starts to lean to the right and it's your body movement and weight shift that makes the bike's frame lean to the right. On a real bike the front tire would then follow the direction of the frame and you'd make a right turn.
While all of the above may be new or interesting, don't let it confuse you. All a rider has to remember is "Press right-Go right" and "Press left-Go Left". Obviously, up to this point, if you've been riding and been successful making turns you've been doing it correctly. Like all of us, it is intuitive. We did it without knowing how or why. Now, practice, practice, practice - but start slow. And as stated above, always look in the direction you want the bike to go. Hope this helps.

Don (MSF Instructor - Retired)
 
#15 ·
8) I was an MSF instructor for over 20 years. During that time I did a lot of reading about "countersteering" and just what the mechanical (physics, etc.) action was that caused it to happen. I also discussed it in detail with a few of the mechanical engineers with whom I work.

The front wheel, once it starts spinning with any real speed actually becomes a gyro. The rear wheel is also, but its not hooked to a steering head. When you try to turn a spinning gyro, the actual action takes place 90 degrees later. It's called gyroscopic precession. So, when you turn a spinning motorcycle wheel (gyro) around a vertical axis, say to the right (push left), what actually happens is the this: the force on the wheel will cause it to rotate around an axis 90 degrees past where you think it should. When it does that, the top of the wheel will actually move to the left as the turning axis for the axle is as if the forks were pointing straight out in front of the bike. I know it sounds strange, but these are the simple facts. There's also much more happening in the physics of the motorcycle frame, but that's enough to make you understand.

Did we ever explain this in the class? Hell no! Most people look at you like you've got three heads when you start to talk about this.

Now as to this being the only way to turn a motorcycle. Not really. One way was mentioned above in using weight transfer. It will work but it's harder to accomplish on many machines, and is slower to react. You can also use your right knee with pressure on the gas tank to turn left, or the left knee to go right. Again, on most machines it really not good for quick reaction. The high performance sport bikes will respond to the knees and the weight transfer on the pegs fairly quick due the quicker steering geometry built into them. But most other bikes, and motor scooters, aren't as quick.

You really don't have to believe any of this to get it to work. As we preached, excuse me, as we intensely instructed, Look left, Push left, Go left; and the opposite for the right. Believe it, use it, and enjoy it. It's the easiest, quickest way to get a two-wheeled machine to change direction.

And, if you're so inclined you can do the research to better understand it.

Good Luck!
 
#16 ·
Great right up Don! As I said earlier, "if you can ride and turn, already using counter-steering", but it helps to understand why. I took a class some time ago in california on a bike that had 2 sets of handle bars, one was hooked to the forks and worked regularly, and one was attached to the frame and didn't turn anything. This was so we could try out turning just by shifting body weight. Body weight transfer barely works at all for initiating a turn, you could never use it to make a turn, it is hard to just stay in a lane using it. the bike was also set up with a pull cord attached to one grip. The purpose was to give us a way to try to pull on the left grip to go left to prove that steering without counter steering was impossible. we all tried it, and all went right instead of left LOL. The Bike was set up with outriggers or more then a few of us would have crashed trying to prove the instructors wrong.

Although I understand 100% that it works, push right go right always confused me. I think this is just because some minds think about things differently. I am very technical in my thinking, left brained all the way LOL, push right go right just didn't make sense to me. What did make sense to me is:

"the first turn of the bars is a steering input, not a counter steer. What you are doing is turning the bars so the frame will drive out from under you and fall in the direction of the turn you wish to make. Once the bike is leaning enough to counter the apposing force you are about to apply to make the turn you apply counter steering to maintain the lean angle and go around the corner. At the end of the corner you turn the bars even further as a steering input, not a counter steering input to force the bike to stand up again.

I think it is important to fully understand counter steering because even though you have to be doing it right if you can turn at all, you need to have a complete understanding of the principal to have the confidence to apply it forcefully to turn quickly.

I wish I had had you for my MSF instructor 16 years ago because your explanation here would have made sense to me the first time, rather then 4 years later after I took a more advanced course.

Once again coodos to you Don, and thanks for being part of BUSA!
 
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#17 ·
Sammy63 said:
8) I was an MSF instructor for over 20 years. During that time I did a lot of reading about "countersteering" and just what the mechanical (physics, etc.) action was that caused it to happen. I also discussed it in detail with a few of the mechanical engineers with whom I work.

The front wheel, once it starts spinning with any real speed actually becomes a gyro. The rear wheel is also, but its not hooked to a steering head. When you try to turn a spinning gyro, the actual action takes place 90 degrees later. It's called gyroscopic precession. So, when you turn a spinning motorcycle wheel (gyro) around a vertical axis, say to the right (push left), what actually happens is the this: the force on the wheel will cause it to rotate around an axis 90 degrees past where you think it should. When it does that, the top of the wheel will actually move to the left as the turning axis for the axle is as if the forks were pointing straight out in front of the bike. I know it sounds strange, but these are the simple facts. There's also much more happening in the physics of the motorcycle frame, but that's enough to make you understand.

Did we ever explain this in the class? Hell no! Most people look at you like you've got three heads when you start to talk about this.

Now as to this being the only way to turn a motorcycle. Not really. One way was mentioned above in using weight transfer. It will work but it's harder to accomplish on many machines, and is slower to react. You can also use your right knee with pressure on the gas tank to turn left, or the left knee to go right. Again, on most machines it really not good for quick reaction. The high performance sport bikes will respond to the knees and the weight transfer on the pegs fairly quick due the quicker steering geometry built into them. But most other bikes, and motor scooters, aren't as quick.

You really don't have to believe any of this to get it to work. As we preached, excuse me, as we intensely instructed, Look left, Push left, Go left; and the opposite for the right. Believe it, use it, and enjoy it. It's the easiest, quickest way to get a two-wheeled machine to change direction.

And, if you're so inclined you can do the research to better understand it.

Good Luck!
I understand your detailed explanation above since I have taken advanced classes and professionally raced, but certainly would not have when I first took the MSF course LOL.

However as to other methods of steering working, such as weight transfer, not on an older 600 Ninja. The principal of weight transfer sound like they would work, however, in practice, the process of transferring weight, say to the right, first requires shifting the bike to the left when force is applied to shift your body to the right. The 2 forces cancel each other out. Sticking a knee out works a little, but, not because of the weight transfer, but, because it caused more wind resistance on one side you stuck your knee out on and being above the CG of the bike and rider, caused the bike to have a leaning force in that direction.

Almost all of us that took the advanced course mentioned in my last post here truly believed that weight transfer, ie shifting your body was an important part of making the bike turn. Most of us believed we could turn the bike with shifting our weight alone. We did a few laps on bikes provided for the course and believed we were turning the bikes with weight shifts alone. We believed this so strongly that heated words were exchanged and some of us were ready to fight with fists for the laws of physics that the instructors were challenging. When we did the laps again on a special bike with 2 handle bars, one normal and one just connected to the frame, and had are hands on the non turning bars, NOT ONE of us could turn the bike with weight shift alone! Oh we could make the bike turn a little bit, but as often as not, not in the direction we intended it too.

Now this is not to say that weight shift and body position is not important during cornering. It is! Just not to initiate, control, or maintain a turn. Rather it is important to maintain stability, control lean angle if you are running out, or relieve a leg or back cramp LOL.

I once believed weight shifts were important for turning and would have argued it into the ground well into my racing years. I no longer due after trying it out on a bike designed to disprove this error of belief.
 
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#18 ·
8) Joel, thanks for your input. I was basing my statements on the weight transfer, and the knee pushing on two things; 1) information from a friend of mine who is also a racer. He spoke to me several times about "body steering" (hanging off of the bike and/or pushing with the knees); and 2) information that I learned when I took the "CLASS" course from Reg Pridmoore. If you have something that's different, that's cool.

I could never get the weight transfer thing to work on either my Gold Wing or my Shadow. The Shadow was the bike I used for the CLASS, taken at Road America in Elkhart Lake, WI. I was able to get lean initiated with the knee push, however. Yes, it was slow, and it was more pronounced on the Shadow than when I tried it later on the Wing. I sure wouldn't want to depend on it.

I watched Reg make a bike weave back and forth in the paddock area of the track working with just his knees and butt. His hands were not on the handlebars at all. It was a Honda VFR. I never had the guts to try what he did, but I figured he had a lot more experience at it than I did, so I took his word for it. That and what I witnessed.

Just as an anecdote in the steering arena! We had one GXR rider in the class that wanted to know when Reg and his instructors were going to teach us how to take a turn in a two-wheel drift. I'll never forget what Reg said. He looked at the man and said, "There are only maybe three or four riders in the world who are fully capable of handling a bike in a two-wheel drift, and NONE of them are here today!" Realizing that Reg was including himself. A lot of us smiled, some laughed. The gentleman who asked the question was not a happy camper.

Anyway, thanks for the input. It kinda' reinforces what I had a gut feel about but was not sure based on what I saw Reg do. I'm still a little hazy in that particular arena. Doesn't matter though. I use counter-steering, and it works. It works for even novices, and that's what's important.
 
#19 ·
Thanks for the info Sammy. Thats wild that Reg could get a VFR to steer some for him with weight shift alone. It makes some sense though because my memory from the last time I rode a VFR was that steering seemed pretty light (I think?) and the frame was very flexible. As I seem to recall the VFR's frame geometry was intensely affected by leaning and uneven pavement. I can see that though because weight shifts did work, just very very little on the old Ninja.

A situation that I find myself running into now and then is I find myself in what I perceive to be near the traction limit, such as on wet ground where I don't know if oil is present, and want to correct my line slightly without applying any more lean angle through counter steering. It never works for me and I always end up having to apply even more lean angle from counter steering to correct or change my line later. Also my stability and smoothness is always a bit unsettled from trying to body check my bike where I want it to go. Part of it, once again on wet ground, is I tend to have a desire to not get any closer to the asphalt I am afraid of eating. This is stupid because in my experience the hardest non wheeled landings on pavement are usually from doing things to try to keep the bike from sliding longer.

On dry ground I rely 100% on counter steering and just use smooth body position moves to control lean angle by altering CG if I am in danger of running out of lean angle. Just using body position to smooth bumps and reduce extreme lean angles makes me a much smoother rider, which is precisely what is needed on slippery pavement, which is just the opposite of what I end up with when I try to body check the bike around when I am nervous LOL.

I think body positions that are stable are probably even more important on the Burgman because if there is one through a step through frame is not good for it is body stability during high speed maneuvering or while hanging off.

I am tempted to try maneuvering on the Burgy with my hands off the bars, and why the heck not! My life insurance is still good, and I have full racing leathers. Heck, I survived an intentionally induced tank slapper last week with no problems other then beating the heck out of the tree stops :) It's all the plastic on the Burgman that concerns me. I don't want to know what it sounds like for the thing to slide down the road on it's side and neither does my insurance agent :)
 
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#20 ·
8) Joel, according to Reg, and my friend, that's where the knee pressure is a great aid. It does cause the bike to change line. And it cuts down on the initial front tire traction increase requirement that occurs when you put a counter steering input into the bars. I've used it often since the CLASS experience to correct lines when all I needed was a "gentle" nudge. They said that if you're into the turn on a bad surface (wet, etc.), that countersteering with too much force can put you down, use the knees gently. You can even initiate a turn, as long as you plan ahead and don't have to go over very far in a hurry. And, you and I both know that when you decide you're going "muscle" the bars, you usually end up with problems. Anyway, think about it and see if it just might be the ticket.

I do know what you mean about those situations, though. I've been riding for over 50 years and I still get some good pucker factors going at times. No matter how much you've ridden, or what you think you've experienced or seen, there's always something new just around the bend. Sometimes nice, and sometimes not so nice.

Well, ride safe, and keep the shiny side up.

Sammy!
 
#21 ·
Sammy63 said:
8) Joel, according to Reg, and my friend, that's where the knee pressure is a great aid. It does cause the bike to change line. And it cuts down on the initial front tire traction increase requirement that occurs when you put a counter steering input into the bars. I've used it often since the CLASS experience to correct lines when all I needed was a "gentle" nudge. They said that if you're into the turn on a bad surface (wet, etc.), that countersteering with too much force can put you down, use the knees gently. You can even initiate a turn, as long as you plan ahead and don't have to go over very far in a hurry. And, you and I both know that when you decide you're going "muscle" the bars, you usually end up with problems. Anyway, think about it and see if it just might be the ticket.

I do know what you mean about those situations, though. I've been riding for over 50 years and I still get some good pucker factors going at times. No matter how much you've ridden, or what you think you've experienced or seen, there's always something new just around the bend. Sometimes nice, and sometimes not so nice.

Well, ride safe, and keep the shiny side up.

Sammy!
I agree whole heartedly about kicking out a knee to change a line gently. I don't lump it in with changing body position to shift weight because according to the race instructor I had, and in a book I read recently (MSF tactics book I think) it isn't the shift in weight that has the effect, but the extra wind drag above and out to the side of the CG.

The most recent situation I had was getting off of the freeway on a high speed off ramp in the rain. There was a lot of traffic and I was entering a mild turn while looking over to check if the left lane was clear. When I looked back, a split second later, the largest painted left arrow I have ever seen was just emerging from under a simi. The left arrow was not to show the lane turned but simply to point out that the whole road jogged a little to the left which I had already noticed. It was wet and I was in an industrial district so my concern for oil on the road was heightened. Slowing down was an option, but in my experience, some thick painted lines you have to virtually stop in a turn to keep from sliding on. Altering my line to avoid it was an option though it would require more use of unknown traction from my tires. Altering my line some so I could stand straight up as I went over the painted arrow and still have the space to counter steer into the rest of the turn was probably the best option, especially combined with standing the bike up first and scrubbing a little speed. What I did instead was gently counter steer a tiny bit combined with slamming my body to the side to alter my course enough to just miss the painted arrow.

The body slam was inadequate, I hit the mark and broke traction with both wheels. Now I am fairly good at dealing with lost traction from the front, back, or even both tires at once. I never panic, I just accept the line I chose is not gonna happen and pick a new gentler line and then slowly try to turn sharper if I still need to. Heck I can even do that 2 wheel drift that Reg thinks only 3 riders can do, and have many times, but only for the last 2 seconds or so preceding a low side LOL. Never the less, even though I can't maintain a loss of traction from the front or both tires, I can pretty reliably recover from one by straightening my line immediately. This is super scary on wet possibly oily ground but still possible, however, any chance of succeeding is hugely reduced if I am thrusting my shoulders and torso around to try to keep from breaking traction in the first place and am there fore not in a stable riding position and not settled into smooth concentration on traction before the slide occurs. I made that turn I am talking about. I slid across the whole painted arrow with both tires and another two feet across asphalt to a few inches from the lane divider while falling over before the bike just stood back up and went around the rest of the corner. I would like to take credit for having skills that made this possible, but in truth, I think the motorcycle gods were just smiling on me that day.

The point of this for me, though possibly not others, is: When I try to concentrate on traction and throw my weight around at the same time I usually end up missing my intended line and do not have the concentration to detect wheel traction, nor ride smoothly. Most of the time I end up having to counter steer harder and less smoothly and end up demanding more traction then the amount I was trying to avoid using in the first place when I used body weight instead of counter steering earlier.

This only happens to me on wet ground where I turn into a somewhat nervous rider compared to dry ground where I feel I know exactly what to expect from the tires.

I don't know if this is helpful to anyone else or if anyone else has had similar observations, but for me, the knee helps, but larger shifts for other then planned ground clearance control always causes me more trouble then it helps with. I am curious if other advanced riders have experienced this.
 
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#22 ·
Since I started this thread, I wanted to thank everyone for all the excellent replies on this subject. I've ridden enough that I know that I'm countersteering, but wanted a better understanding of just how to do it properly. I guess I thought most of it was just shifting weight, but when I analyzed it, it is really a push on the handlebars to get it started. Funny that I was doing this without really being aware of it. Only when I tried to turn with just a lean, did I realize there was a LOT more involved than just leaning. Again, great responses. 8)
 
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#24 ·
Great reading here! Thank you people for sharing your experiences, for an inexperienced rider like me this is very helpful! It is amasing how fast the bike responds to countersteering!


Sammy63 said:
...When you try to turn a spinning gyro, the actual action takes place 90 degrees later. It's called gyroscopic precession. So, when you turn a spinning motorcycle wheel (gyro) around a vertical axis, say to the right (push left), what actually happens is the this: the force on the wheel will cause it to rotate around an axis 90 degrees past where you think it should....
I found a little video about gyroscopic precession. A guy has a spinning wheel hanging on two strings, cuts loose the string on the left side of the axle and gravity pushes the left side of the axle to the front (this depends on the way the wheel rotates) and thus turns the wheel to the right instead of pulling it down.

Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P014jvaB ... ed&search=
 
#25 ·
I want to bring two things to bear. I learned more in the motorcycle class I took in FL, than I learned in 50 years of driving. I was confused about leaning into a turn, but it soon became aware to me, that you go where you lean. To the question of 1% of the gruff and unruly looking motorcycle crowd, I have never been abused by these riders. They have always been there in time of need, and even th the grubiest looking motorcycle rider, was there to help. I just have faith in people, and I have learned over the years, looks are only skin deep. You cannot tell a book by it's covers.

Allen Pearl
2006 White AN650
 
#26 ·
Most explanations of countersteering are much too convoluted. The key things to understand are:

(1) Turning is accomplished by leaning the bike in the direction of the turn.

(2) The handlebars control the direction of travel of the front wheel. If you turn the bars left, the front wheel moves to the left out from under you and so the bike leans to the right. Therefore you turn right.

It's that simple. Gyroscopic precession is not the primary force. It's completely different from driving a car, because cars do not lean in order to turn.
 
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