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Buffalo said:
You really need to ride all three to understand the difference. The 400s are nice scooters but that's what they feel like, large scooters. The late model is a little smoother and nicer than the early model but it still feels like a large scooter. The 650 feels more like a small sport touring motorcycle. I'm not trying to say one is better than the other I'm just saying that they have a different feel and provide a different riding experience. I think that is all Gdawg was trying to say too. After all I didn't notice him saying he was ready to sell the 400 :roll: .
Interesting.

I have a different viewpoint. I've ridden motorcycles for many years, and have a sportbike and a touring bike. Not wealthy, just spend it all on bikes. Got the scooter for medical reasons (hopefully relatively short term). I've been surprised at how much the 400 handles like a motorcycle on a twisty back road. Light steering, pretty nimble, good feedback, considering the tiny wheels and the long wheelbase. Much less power and a harsher ride, of course. I'm sure the 650 is better at both of those, but I doubt very much it would come even close to my sportbike for power or my tourer for ride.

I understand people who find the 400 underpowered, and the 650 more acceptable. Especially with the slow off the line behavior of a stock 400. I understand the 650 ride is smoother. But, speaking as someone who has motorcycles with real power and a relatively smooth ride, this just isn't a big deal, FOR ME. The lighter weight of the 400 was more important to me.

They're both (very nice) scooters to me <grin>.
 
tsc3047 said:
Oh no now the argument that the 650 is a motorcycle and the 400 is a scooter. :roll:
Nope, they are both motorcycles and they are both scooters :thumbup:

09burgman said:
I've been surprised at how much the 400 handles like a motorcycle on a twisty back road. Light steering, pretty nimble, good feedback, considering the tiny wheels and the long wheelbase.
Didn't say the 400 couldn't handle, it handles quite well. It just exhibits the traits of a bike with a swingarm mounted engine. As an example it rises on the rear suspension under acceleration instead of squating like most motorcycles.
Are those traits a big deal, no but under the right conditions a few of them can bite if you don't allow for them.
 
gdawg said:
i do not like that the 400 rises on accel
Having owned a (non-Paralever) BMW for years, I'm used to that.

I ran across these threads where a number of people explained their preference for the 400 over the 650. I realize it's not a majority view, but it's hardly uninformed.

viewtopic.php?p=189058#p189058
viewtopic.php?p=202270#p202270

I think one reason the 400 is fine with me is that I have owned much more powerful 2 wheeled vehicles than the 650. So the power of the 650 is nothing special for me. I'm taking a significant step backward in power anyway, making it a larger step is no big deal.
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
it might would be interesting to know those that are in the "know" about the two..... if age - height - strength have anything to do with preferences ....

for me, i'm fairly young...not 40 yet.....fairly tall... 6'1" and fairly strong.... thus, the weight, seat height, doesn't bother me. in fact, i welcome it all, that is above the 400.... meaning i feel the weight contributes to it being more stable... less subject to wind.....

one time i actually thought the 400 was more stable......not sure if it was tire related or maybe wind.... but after spending around 3k miles alone on the 400, then riding the 650 for just one day.....it's so noticeable which is king, it's silly....

of course, i don't have any health issues that would prevent me from handling the 650 as some may, and i'm not height challenged.... and no, i am not trying to be mean ....
 
gdawg said:
fairly tall... 6'1"
This is the thing that gets me, I'm not short either, Nearly 6', and I just do not feel confident putting my feet down with the 650. Granted this is only just sitting in the dealer's showroom, and not riding around town, but still. I see alot shorter people riding the 650, and I'm just puzzled why I have such a hard time putting my feet down. Maybe they are just tip-toeing it? But I feel alot more confident holding the bike up flat footed, especially if I'm going to ever have a passanger. I guess when (if) the time comes, I could do what others have done and shave the seat some to make it skinnier.
 
It's not just how tall you are but how long your legs are. Some taller folks have shorter legs than some shorter folks. As an example I'm 5'11" with a 33" inseam. I have a friend that is 6'2" but he only has a 31" inseam.

For the record, I am 60 and in good health and reasonably strong for my age. I don't have any issues pushing either bike around so that does not figure into my choice of which one to ride. I also don't feel any difference in stability between them caused by the wind. I've ridden both in sustained 35 mph winds with gust of 45 to 50+ and didn't find that the wind moved one about anymore than the other.
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
Buffalo said:
Some taller folks have shorter legs than some shorter folks.
a perfect example would be that swimmer guy, Michael Pelphs (SP?) very tall, short legs.....very obvious


as for the wind, it's not the high wind that i would say that makes a difference...but the small, less suddle everyday wind
 
To me the road surface makes more of a stability difference between the two than the wind (high or low). The more ridged layout of the 650s suspension just reacts to dips and bumps better, especially when you encounter them in corners. Still it's not enough to affect my choice of which one to pick to ride on a given day.
 
gdawg said:
it might would be interesting to know those that are in the "know" about the two..... if age - height - strength have anything to do with preferences ....

..it's so noticeable which is king, it's silly....
For some people age-height-strength are the issues. For others, not. No data to say exactly how big a factor this is. For many it's whether they use the scooter (either one <grin>) more in town or more on the road.

On the other side, I would be interested in knowing how many 650 riders have owned something _really_ fast, and for how many this is the fastest thing they've owned on two wheels. Power is seductive, which is why sport bikes are so popular and why most 600 riders would rather have a 1000.

Comments from the threads referenced above by people who have "downsized".

"I had Burger 650 and I too went "down" to the 400-cc size. I think it is the sweet spot for scooters for many of us. The difference in weight makes a huge difference and in urban riding it is a lot easier to wiggle around traffic.

"I had an 05 650 with the OD tranny and I actually loved it. I traded it in on an 07 400. I didn't think I could love it more but I do. The 400 seems to address any and every minor complaint I had about the 650."

"Slow speed manuvering on the 400 is much better. It dosent fall into corners as easily, especially during a slow sharp turns."

"Rear view mirrors although obviously not as good looking (not even close) are much more useable. I'm no longer looking at my hands."

"The 400's cornering capability is equal to the 650's. Different and not as secure but I can take agressive curves just as fast. "

"I just listed mine (650) in the classified section for the same reason. Love it but too heavy for around town use, which is the only place I ride. I'll miss the power and smoothness but am looking forward to more maneuverability to avoid the cagers. I think the k7 400 will be a great replacement. "

"Passenger accomodation is as good as the 650's in her opinion but better is the 400's rear seat height. It had her sitting a tad higher giving her a little better view."

"I really enjoy the ride and performance of the 650 but I'm growing tired of the feeling that I'm not well planted at rest. As we know it is heavy therefore the weight with the height for me at least makes riding especially stopped more work than pleasure."

"I really don't want to knock anyone who loves their 650 and I know there is a lot to love (Rock solid stability at 85 mph) but when <I bought a 650> I realized I went back to a hard riding, heavy, slow speed unstable, bike that at some times gave me MPG figures as low as 37 mpg. I personally feel that I've lost nothing by buying the new 400."

Etc. Bottom line for people who went from a 650 to a 400. "Sometimes less is more."

The 650 ain't "king" for them, or for me. It's always interesting to me how many people think what's right for them is right in some cosmic sense. This is a personal choice, and a substantial minority simply prefer the 400, for a wide variety of personal reasons.
 
This is a very interesting discussion. I just bought a 650 last September. I chose it over the 400 because of the extra weight. I felt it would be more stable on longer rides. I do agree that the 400 would be better in the city. With all the constant stop and go, being able to flatfoot the bike and shift the weight for maneuvering around obstacles seems like a great reason for someone choosing a 400. I will start commuting on my Burgman 650 which is about 35 miles each way. I would say 30 of the 35 miles is all highway. For me, the weight becomes a non issue and in some cases an added bonus. I think people are smart to buy what fits them and the purpose the will use it for. I laugh when I hear about people with the big Goldwings and HD Ultras not taking their bikes out for quick rides because of the "trouble" all that weight is. Some times less (power/weight) is better and other times more is just a hassle.

And for getting my feet down flat (I'm 5'9" with a 33" inseam) I tend to slide forward closer to the edge of the seat. When I am ready to go, I just push back a little and prop my feet up to enjoy. I love it!
 
I think the point of round town comfort is a big deal. But also being able to jump on the interstate and take that long haul trip, as fast of you want, anytime you want is great. The 400 offers some unbeatable versatility, and efficient travel.
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
the best comparison i ever heard about the 400 vs 650 was....the 400 is like a corrolla, and the 650 is like a camry ...
i so agree with that statement....
and if we were discussing the corrolla and the camry, it would be the same thing....
better MPG's
more power
smoother ride
better in town
can't see over the hood....
bla bla bla bla....... :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
You can't compare Toyota to Suzuki. Remember these have working brakes and actually stop.
 
I too have become tired of the slow off the line acceleration and the degree of high speed stability of my 400, but my upgrade will probably be to a tmax - maybe a 750 if it ever arrives. I have been a little scared off by posts about "primary spline failures" and cvt rebuilds. Am I overreacting?
 
tsc3047 said:
I think the point of round town comfort is a big deal. But also being able to jump on the interstate and take that long haul trip, as fast of you want, anytime you want is great. The 400 offers some unbeatable versatility, and efficient travel.
I just got back from my first cross-island ride in more than 6 months. Been busy lately and for the last few months it just doesn't seem to stop raining and drizzling 100,000 times a day, so I've been relegated to regular commuting to work & errands on the bike. What I find un-nerves me at speeds of 65 mph and higher is: my riding abilities. I was the same rider when I had the 650. Surprise cross-winds suddenly blasting you when you're riding on wet pavement while leaning into a sharp turn can give me a jolt, whatever 2 wheeled vehicle I'm riding. People still come up to me from behind in certain areas where 70 mph seems the norm and I don't care how much more power I got in reserve, I'm just not comfortable gunning it to keep from getting runned over from behind unless there's a solid dry straight road ahead. I will say I lean more into turns now, but that's because that aspect of my abilities has improved, not because of the 400 being more nimble at medium to high speeds (it is at slow speeds though). Being able to flat foot at stops, walk the bike manually and take it off the center stand without having a hernia helps too :p
 
LarryA said:
I have been a little scared off by posts about "primary spline failures" and cvt rebuilds. Am I overreacting?
In a word, Yes. The primary spline failures occured on early model (pre 05) and Suzuki made a change that seems to have corrected it. Very few folks have experienced a CVT failure and we are starting to find out ways to prevent them like inspecting and changing out the stopper bolt.
 
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