[Kot]

On active acceleration my old Burgman 650 (more 60k mileage) too late switches up gear. Sometimes it looks like I run with Power Mode on. Up to cutoff (without switching gear up) when I start with full power.

What can cause this behavior?

It is definitely not a clutch, I've checked it according the manual (started at 1500, rpms no more than 3200 with clamped brakes). I've tried to do something with Pulley Position Sensor (pushed) -- train it, lubricate with WD-40 inside, nothing changed (of course, it is not guarantees that PPS is not broken).

Which way I should see in addition?

More information: no FI errors, nor in manual mode neither auto. The same behavior in manual mode acceleration: the engine roars approx in 9000 rpms on 3d gear, and switched up to 4th gear either in a while or after throttle back.

 

[MJR]

Delayed shifting could be the PPS, CVT motor, controller, or internal CVT if I understand the problem your having. Does it feel like its slipping or just holding in gear longer than normally? Did this just start doing this and was anything done to the bike before it started doing this?

 

[Kot]

Delayed shifting could be the PPS, CVT motor, controller, or internal CVT if I understand the problem your having.

Definitely not PPS, I've replaced my by another one from notorious working scooter, problem has not been resolved.

CVT motor seems to be working. Anyway, when in manual mode I pressed "up" button -- nothing happens (until I decrease accelerator a bit).

What is "controller" and "internal CVT"? Where these parts are located? Does "controller" is the same as ECM?

Does it feel like its slipping or just holding in gear longer than normally?

Not slipping, because speed is constantly increased. Moreover at start with another 650 I am in a front first few seconds.

Did this just start doing this and was anything done to the bike before it started doing this?

I can't say when this issue began, it is not so obvious, only when I riding aggressively. But... I suspect it started after I've encountered with some "watter" issues with immo and ECM (described in that topic: http://burgmanusa.com/forums/15-burgman-650/80065-some-questions-immo-removing-5.html#post811345).

 

[MJR]

What is "controller" and "internal CVT"? Where these parts are located? Does "controller" is the same as ECM?

I can't say when this issue began, it is not so obvious, only when I riding aggressively. But... I suspect it started after I've encountered with some "watter" issues with immo and ECM (described in that topic: http://burgmanusa.com/forums/15-burgman-650/80065-some-questions-immo-removing-5.html#post811345).

On the '03-'04 the CVT is controlled by a seperate ECM but '05-up are part of the engine ECM. Considering you are having immobilizer issues and the ECM housing is missing a piece it's possible it's all related or there is a internal problem in the CVT primary pulley assembly.

 

[Kot]

Ok, does anyone know what can cause this issue inside the CVT? Suppose, all sensors work as expected. So, when I accelerate aggressively, something prevents driving (?) pulley to shrink, so CVT controller doesn't send a command to shift gear up.

So, the question is: whereon I should pay attention within the CVT?

 

[Buffalo]

A friends bike was acting the same way. When the CVT was opened up they found (1) the input bearing on the CVT had failed, (2) the o'ring between the primary pulley and the outside CVT case half had failed, (3) the primary pulley had failed and (4) the outside CVT case half was worn from the primary pulley moving around in it to the point of needing replacing. By the time they tore it down to discover all this there was no way to tell which part failed first but the mechanic though it might have been the o'ring.

If you have not already done so pull the primary pulley stopper bolt out and examine it for damage. Excessive wear on that bolt can point to problems with the primary pulley side of the CVT.

 

[Kot]

Thanks all for attention to my problem. I've decided to take apart the CVT block. It seems like primary pulley wedges up.

P.S. Tomorrow I'll inspect the stopper bold, just for verifying the assumption. But I'm not sure whether I find something unusual -- I've inspected it 5000 kilometers ago, it was ok.

 

[miken6mz]

Has anyone ever tried to inspect the CVT internals using one of those "inspection cameras" such as the cheapo ones that Harbor Freight sells? It might be the only way to determine whether CVT internals are failing ... and to catch them before they do $seriou$ damage to the pulley assemblies or the case.

I looked through the manual for the "Cen-Tech High Resolution Digital Inspection Camera with Recorder" but couldn't find any spec for minimum focus distance.

 

[Buffalo]

I've never tried it.

Problem will be getting it inside to a place where you can see much. About the only places you will be able to insert it are through the hole where the PPS bolts on and through the cooling air exhaust vent.

Through the PPS hole you will be able to see the back side of the primary pulley and the gears that transfer rotation from the electric adjuster to the primary pulley and not much else. Through the exhaust vent you will able to see the top of the primary pulley and not much else.

I don't think you could push the camera around enough to get it to a place where you could see the things that normally go bad. Just not enough clearance between the parts and the case. About the only thing it might tell you is if the belt is broken or not. If you already had the camera it might be worth a look but I wouldn't buy one for this purpose.

 

[miken6mz]

I wouldn't buy one because they're communist chinese junk no doubt.

You're right, looking at the nice color diagram of the drive train from pirmil.info it appears that there's a structural ridge in the casting that completely hides the primary pulley input bearing from view if you stick a camera into the cooling air outlet.

 

[TheReaper]

I wouldn't buy one because they're communist chinese junk no doubt.

You're right, looking at the nice color diagram of the drive train from pirmil.info it appears that there's a structural ridge in the casting that completely hides the primary pulley input bearing from view if you stick a camera into the cooling air outlet.

I've got one of those cameras . mine is a Ridged brand . They work pretty good for certain things , but not so good on others . The snake is fairly stiff so it's a PIA to manipulate . On a CVT you could probably see if the belt were broke but probably not much else . I use mine maybe a couple times a year and it does come in handy .

TheReaper!

 

[MJR]

I've never tried it.

Problem will be getting it inside to a place where you can see much. About the only places you will be able to insert it are through the hole where the PPS bolts on and through the cooling air exhaust vent.

Through the PPS hole you will be able to see the back side of the primary pulley and the gears that transfer rotation from the electric adjuster to the primary pulley and not much else. Through the exhaust vent you will able to see the top of the primary pulley and not much else.

I don't think you could push the camera around enough to get it to a place where you could see the things that normally go bad. Just not enough clearance between the parts and the case. About the only thing it might tell you is if the belt is broken or not. If you already had the camera it might be worth a look but I wouldn't buy one for this purpose.

Same here, thought about it but as Buffalo said other than looking at the belt or pulley surfaces you won't be able to get into the areas that fail (input bearing, keys within the primary pulley assembly, etc), you still have to pull it apart for that.

 

[Kot]

Regarding to camera: my friend has used endoscope for that purpose. It allows to inspect plastic gears condition and surface of the belt. It is faster than reassembling the whole CVT.

Today I've determined the root of the issue described if first post: it is shimmed sliding mechanism of primary pulley.

Tomorrow I'll reassembly it and inspect. Pretty sure it is dry, and possible some issues with a dowels (suspect I'd have to turn new pair).

 

[LeDude]

Have you taken the clutch apart to examine its parts?

If the PPS is working properly and the CVT motor is in good shape, it could be another internal problem inside the CVT case.

has the fluid been changed regularly in the final gear case?

double check the speedo sensor.

You may have to take the CVT assembly out and break it open to inspect its internal parts to be sure or find the source of the problem.

good luck.

 

[Buffalo]

I think from his prior post he has cracked the CVT open and determined the problem is the primary pulley. If I understand his post it looks like the adjuster inside it has failed. Looks like he plans to take the primary pulley apart and try to fix it.

 

[MJR]

Sounds like to me his refering to the "possible some issues with a dowels (suspect I'd have to turn new pair)" would mean to me possibly the keys that keep each half of the pulley from spinning differently for each other while allowing them to move in/out. I have such a primary pulley assembly I replaced for someone because they were bad and some of those guys in Europe have had too.

 

[Kot]

Hello everyone, finally I've reassembled CVT case and tested scooter acceleration: works much better than before, ever before latest issues!

The issue with later gear shifting was based in dry and muddy worm gearing within adjuster on primary pulley:

I've cleaned it as I can, greased with hight temperature bearing lubricant -- now it rotates smoothly, without any seizing.

Also the dowels have been replaced by brassed handmade pair, look at their condition:

I'm disappointed that Suzuki says nothing about adjuster inspection. They means that I should buy new primary pulley for 800$ instead of simply greasing?? Nasty trick...

Maybe someone knows what I can use instead of original dowels? Part number, anything similar? I made new pair from a brass, but it is worse then original in hard plastic cover.

 

[MJR]

The adjuster uses an antiseize on the worm drive. At least your key ways are intact mostly, definitely not worn down flush like the '07 I worked on. I think it was some guys in Spain or Italy that made new keys from silicone bronze. I'm not sure if the stock ones are plastic as I have taken a torch to some and they didn't melt.

 

[Kot]

I'm not sure if the stock ones are plastic as I have taken a torch to some and they didn't melt.

Current plastics may be harder than some metals. Anyway, I don't know what is the mechanism. It is fragile and somewhat slippery, but definitely should bear high temperatures. There is metallic core inside for more hardness.

I know that Suzuki should have part number for it, but why no one knows it?...

 

[ErikDK]

The keys are NOT a spare part you can buy. The Italians complain that you can't buy them.

Did you use the frame lif method, or did you do it by the book?