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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I have a store selling cheap 10w-40 motor oil for only 2.89 per quart. It meets the standards but just wondering if I should buy something more expensive?
 

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If it meets the standards, I would. Some people give me a hard time because I use Fleet Farm oil ($2.25 qt). I just say that if it works in a $200,000 combine, why not $10,000-$1,000 bike?
It's cheaper because they don't have to pay for advertising.

I still contend that any in spec. clean oil, is better than any in spec. dirty oil.

P.S.
In 60 years, under non-racing conditions, I have NEVER heard of an engine failure caused by using in spec. clean cheaper oil.
 

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I'm with Jim. Riding and driving for 45 years and well over a million miles on many types of

engines driving hard, fast, and often towing large trailers, and I have never had an engine failure.

I have use top grade synthetics and cheapest I could find. Regular Maintenance and clean oil are the most important. High grade, high cost oils may be better, but only if kept clean.:cya:
 

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As much as we would all like to think our bikes will last 250k miles and we need better oil to make that goal, the fact is most bikes will berely make 50k in real life. Accidents, tranny problems, 5 years of non-use, desire for new equipment, broken plastics and many other reasons will relegate most bikes to the scrap yard or the used maket far before the engine goes to Davy Jones locker.

Whats been said is true, change it often with oil that meets the specs as well as filters and you should be fine.
 

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As much as we would all like to think our bikes will last 250k miles and we need better oil to make that goal, the fact is most bikes will berely make 50k in real life. Accidents, tranny problems, 5 years of non-use, desire for new equipment, broken plastics and many other reasons will relegate most bikes to the scrap yard or the used maket far before the engine goes to Davy Jones locker.

Whats been said is true, change it often with oil that meets the specs as well as filters and you should be fine.

Got to disagree with you on that , I will bet that bergman will do an easy 100 k or more well cared for and un crashed .
My 2006 has just shy of 42 k it barley broken in for that bike .
Many in the Gold wing clubs are at 500 k and above .
 

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Got to disagree with you on that , I will bet that bergman will do an easy 100 k or more well cared for and un crashed .
My 2006 has just shy of 42 k it barley broken in for that bike .
Many in the Gold wing clubs are at 500 k and above .
I have absolutely no doubt that the Burgman engines will do 100k miles. My point was that most bikes don't make it to that mileage due to a whole host of other factors, like crashing, broken CVT belt, lack of use or people just wanting something different.

With the very high costs of replacing plastics or a CVT belt, it doesn't make economic sense to save the bike and engine unless you're mechanically inclined. It's cheaper to replace with a good used model.
 

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Also, I'd recommend using a specific motorcycle oil, not cheap car oil. Car oil has limitations when used in high revving motorcycle engines and is overall false economy if you want your engine to go the full mileage it's capable of. Changing it more often doesn't make up for the fact car oil is designed for low revvers, not bikes, it'll always have limitations that motorcycle oil doesn't have. Loads I can say about it but won't just here. Spent months testing every known oil in europe in our bench engines, some to destruction. I learned so much, and we got loads of good advice from oil scientists who worked with us on our developments. More expensive motorcycle oil, even when dirty lubricates incredibly well, in fact, just as good as when it's clean, no engine wear. Dirty oil doesn't necessarily mean to say it needs changing, not if it's still within the recommended mileage. Dirty cheap oil, now that needs changing. Lots of reasons for that. Strange but true!
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Has there been any verifiable tests that motorcycle oil is better than regular car motor oil?
 

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The main difference is when used in a wet clutch, which the 650 has, but the 400 does not. The specific grade should be the tell.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Why is it that we should use motorcycle oil in our scooters and not regular motor oil? Does it really make a big difference in our burgmans?
 

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Also, I'd recommend using a specific motorcycle oil, not cheap car oil. Car oil has limitations when used in high revving motorcycle engines and is overall false economy if you want your engine to go the full mileage it's capable of. Changing it more often doesn't make up for the fact car oil is designed for low revvers, not bikes, it'll always have limitations that motorcycle oil doesn't have. Loads I can say about it but won't just here. Spent months testing every known oil in europe in our bench engines, some to destruction. I learned so much, and we got loads of good advice from oil scientists who worked with us on our developments. More expensive motorcycle oil, even when dirty lubricates incredibly well, in fact, just as good as when it's clean, no engine wear. Dirty oil doesn't necessarily mean to say it needs changing, not if it's still within the recommended mileage. Dirty cheap oil, now that needs changing. Lots of reasons for that. Strange but true!
Has there been any verifiable tests that motorcycle oil is better than regular car motor oil?
Why is it that we should use motorcycle oil in our scooters and not regular motor oil? Does it really make a big difference in our burgmans?
Reading Quantum Mechanics post seems to answer your questions. " verifiable tests" :dontknow: Perhaps Quantum Mechanic can tell you if they are verifiable.
 

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QM is saying that regular car oil isn't designed to be good up to a 12k redline, which certainly seems reasonable to me. However, my Burg's motor rarely revs above 5k and never gets anywhere near the redline except for occasional moments of excitement.

And so, on the advice of a friend who is also a motorcycle mechanic, I use the cheapest dino oil I can find that's rated at 10w-40. Because I change it every 3k miles, and I am a daily commuter, this means that I change it every five or six weeks year round and, though I've had the Burg just a year, I've been doing this with every motorcycle I've owned for the past 15 years and they've all been high-mileage beasts.
 

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Like Liamjs said if you change it often with oil that meets the specs the engine will outlast the plastics or just wanting something different to ride. Oh but I do like a good oil debate. :p
 

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Yep, some good idea's on here and I wouldn't argue or be overly critical against anything anyone is doing or wanting to do here. It's up to the individual to do as you wish and inline with what you believe. I don't want to start or precipitate an oil thread directly. But some things are worthy of note. There has been lots of oil testing carried out over the years by manufacturers and of course the oil scientists. TUV Testing house of Germany had carried out many tests as have others. There is quite a bit of information (and misinformation) on the interweb. If you read anything on the net, make sure it's up to date as the older stuff is not actually too relevant anymore. Things have changed in the oil world a lot over the last few years. My own company that I worked for had to carry out oil tests yearly on differing engines that we designed and developed. We used all sorts of oils and specs too to reflect what was on the market at the time. All our tests were verified independently by industry and company engineers (errr...that's still me as the company man!).

Regarding car oils in bikes. It's generally not wise for the majority of modern bikes especially if you want your engine to remain pristine over time and high mileage. Car oils cause increased wear due to limitations in the oil make up at the molecular level. Car oils don't cope so well with the stress and heat of modern motorcycle engines, especially the high revs compared to cars, and the way motorcycle engines 'mash' the oil molecules up really fast. Motorcycle engine oil has greater resistance to 'mashing' of the molecular strings that holds the oil together, thus preventing breakdown of the oil at high heat and high stress, and high mileage. They cope well with extreme pressures inside our engines.

Chipdoc is not doing bad at all, but may be wasting quite a lot of money overall, and oil! If you used a good quality fully synthetic oil it will easily go around 5-6 times further than ordinary dino oil without any measurable engine wear. Even if it gets dirty is makes no difference to engine wear or the running of the engine. Just leave it in until change time, which can be much longer than using semi syn or dino. In our testing of our bench motorcycle engines with the various oils we were trying out, dino oil allowed between 4 and 7 times as much engine wear to occur over the test cycle of each engine. These engines were run to the equivalent of 100,000 miles over several weeks. The engine wear was to all major components, particularly cams and pistons/rings, with cylinder bores suffering the most with much more glazing over time. We found our test engines run on dino oil wore out cams early at between 50k-55k miles. Very unsatisfactory. Yet with fully synthetic oil the cams showed no sign of any wear at all even at the equivalent of 100,000 miles. Semi syn oil, as expected, came always somewhere in between the two oil types.

So just some information for those that may be interested. The one thing I learned is that all this oil hype about motorcycle engine oil, isn't just hype! It's actual fact that it's better for your engine. And I admit that even as a tech for over 30 years before moving to engine design and development, I was just a little skeptical about some of their claims too. Not anymore!
 

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So I have to ask you QM, what brand of oil do you use in your 400 and how often (miles)
do you change it? Just wondering. Btw, thanks so much for the above post...very informative.
 

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Hi Dan, I use Shell Advance 10-40 fully synthetic motorcycle oil. I change it every 5,000 miles along with the filter. All my bikes including my GSX1400, DL1000Gt etc had the same fully synthetic oil in them and all went longer than the manufacturers recommended oil change interval times on the fully syn oil before I changed it. It got dirty! But that doesn't matter. That's no detriment if it's fully or semi syn. My GSX1400 covered over 190,000 miles without trouble and my DL1000GT 120,000 miles before I sold it, all with the same oil change routine listed above and no trouble ever. Over here in the UK fully syn oil is not much more than semi syn so it's worth using all the time. Put it in an leave it. Unless you are doing very short journeys all the time, in which case change is more often.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Would anyone here recommend an off brand name synthetic? I'm taking about the Oreilly's motor oil $5.99 per quart. It's fully synthetic yet almost $5 cheaper than the other synthetic oils being sold. Good or bad quality?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Also, Just wondering, would you recommend regular Dino oil at 2.89 per quart or synthetic oil at 7.49 per quart? If I use Dino oil I'll change every 3000 and if I use synthetic I can change every 5000 right? Will it really prolong my engine life in the long run if I used a synthetic vs a conventional oil, considering that my oil changes are consistently regular?Thanks.
 

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Jim, yes dirt in your oil could be abrasive. But thanks to modern oils, especially fully syn, it isn't and it won't harm you engine in any way if the oil quality is good! And that is proven. You need to understand what the actual dirt in the oil is and how good quality fully syn and even semi syn deals with it. Firstly, and you prolly know this, 99.9% of dirt in the oil is carbon. This comes from the combustion process and from oil that get fried and turned to carbon due to heat. This makes the oil go black, sometimes quite quickly if the oil is dino or other poorer quality stuff. Although there is a caveat to this generalisation which is that some dino oil is of such poor quality that the oil remains clean looking for quite some time into it's use. The reason for this is the lack of detergents and cleaners in the oil. This causes the dino oil to drop the carbon dirt into the oil ways and bottom of the sump, rather than suspending it with in, resulting in sludge build up in the engine. Not good for the engine! In addition, dino oil in particular isn't good with heat and breaks down really quickly in modern high heat engines such as our Burgmans. It becomes damaged very quickly if you get in traffic for any length of time too as it over heats even in liquid cooled bikes and even with the fans on to keep the engine cool. Our tests showed this. Once damaged the oil never recovers and you get more dirt and less lube from that oil which then goes on to break down even more quickly dramatically increasing every type of engine wear ie: compressive, and frictional wear. Changing the oil early doesn't help much as dino has so many limitations. You are always running poor quality oil which even when newly installed in the engine is far inferior to semi or fully syn, even more so if it's car oil. It just doesn't flow good when cold either, the point when around 95-97% of total life engine wear takes place The difference was dramatic in our testing.

Modern fully syn and semi syn oils package up the carbon dirt and help break it down to very fine particulates, also helping to soften it. It fully suspends the particulates in the oil, preventing them from causing sludge in the bottom of the engine and in oil ways. And because the carbon dirt is wrapped up tight it literally doesn't do any harm at all to the engine. It doesn't cause any extra wear, that's proven. That's not the case with dino oil though. So that's another good reason not to use it.

However, if someone is not doing many miles and maybe keeps the bike over a 5-10 year period with very low miles then I guess you are not going to be too troubled by the oil you use. Even dino will do but of course, your engine in spite of early changes will suffer, that is certain. But probably not enough to bother you or for you to notice. So for many folk that's fine for them.

Dan, to answer you question about using dino or fully syn. There is no question that fully syn oil WILL make your engine last longer in whatever circumstances you use it. It's proven, it works. It reduces engine wear to as close to zero as is possible. It will give a small improvement in fuel economy and in power output too. But the question is, will it benefit you. If you are only keeping the bike for two, three or four years with average miles then semi syn will be fine (I still wouldn't use dino though if it were me). High speed cruising on dino in our Burgmans doesn't rest well with me as it's protection is again very poor under those conditions. Yes, you can extend the oil change intervals if you use a good quality fully synthetic motorcycle oil. It does protect for much longer than semi syn or dino oil. I change mine at 5,000 mile intervals making it no more expensive than semi syn oil. In fact, it works out just a little cheaper than semi syn over here. There's no reason not to use it over here.

So again, not attempting to be critical of what anyone here is doing. Go with what you feel is best for you. Just pointing out some interesting facts that I've found out through our research and development and from the oil guys.
 
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