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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all!

I have been waiting for long to have the time to overhaul my Burg, and last August I finally could.
Basically the bike was burning a lot of oil, like 750 ml (0,20 gallons) every 800 (500) - 900 km (560 miles), and I was a bit worried about it.

The thing is that I decided to do an overhaul, and here goes what I did.
I don't mean this is the right thing to do, nor the best, or even what everybody has to do if their bike burns oil. I am only telling my experience.

I decided to change the oil rings and the valve oil seals, and I ended up changing both PAIR rubber tubes, cilinder gaskets and some more minor parts.

The results are... impressive to me. The firts 600 km (370 miles) (mixed urban and open road) it burnt like 60 ml (0,016 gallons)... and after 1000 km or so I did a long trip, 1200 km (745 miles) (mostly highway, at 5000-6000 rpm) and it burnt like 190 ml (0,05 gallons). Now I'm waiting to check the next 1000 km.
So far I'm very happy about the change, as now the oil is not vented (vapourised?) up to the air box filter, and as a single-lung engine I can accept some oil consumption but not that much as before.

I did it myself, and also paid attention to some mature mechanic who told me to install the rings in an specific position.

So far, so good.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
About money, I changed the following parts:

piston rings
gaskets (cover, head and cylinder)
valve oil seals 4
exhaust gaskets 2
PAIR hoses 2
I also change 2 oils seals and 2 o-rings, the ones in the movable driven part of the clutch.

I spent around 180 euros.

I cannot calculate the time accurately because I did it in my spare time and had to wait for the parts to arrive, but I think it took me 2 hours to dismantle the cilinder and another 2 hours to install the new parts. Plus 1 hour to check the clutch, sand the pads, change the o-rings and oil seals, and put it in working condition.

I would say the difficulty of the operation is medium-high, and I myself have to ask for advice and help at some point.
So far I am very happy to have done it.
 

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Thank you manu, its always good to have an idea how much things cost, should the need arise to buy them.

Hope the bike runs like new now ?

Oh I forgot to ask, was there much cylinder bore wear, scores or a ridge at the top ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The bike runs so good now, I'm really happy.

there were no wear traces in the cylinder or piston, no scores, no ridge at the top... it looked so smoothly. The rings were a bit worn but within specs.
I suspect it is more a question of ring's placement rather than ring's wear, time will tell.
The valve's oil seals were hard and looked old, therefore they needed changing.
And one symptom the engine was burning oil, apart from the need to refill the engine with oil every now and then, is that the rear end of the exhaust looke black and now looks white, so now the engine is burning fuel correctly.
 

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@manu, how is your burger going after two years? still consuming oil? has the consumption increased or decreased?
I have another heavy drinker :) I suppose more than a liter per 1kkm, not measured yet. It's 2004 400

I've dug a lot of resources and it looks that piston rings are common thing for burgman oil issues. Piston and a cylinder are most often intact, while rings are worn out. I do not know if it's a problem of poor rings design or wrong material used.

I've stumbled upon a guy who used car rings in his burgman and claimed that gotten rid of oil consumption problems at all.
He did not complain anymore, thus I assume he gotten rid of the problem permanentyly :)
2 liters alfa romeo petrol engine has very similar piston ring dimensions to burgman, i.e. 83mm diameter, height 1.2/1.2/2mm.
The piston would need top two grooves to be milled from 1 to 1.2mm, oild ring groove is the same.
I am thinking of going for a top ring set by mehle or goetze and trying it.
A question that comes to my mind is if a cylinder should be honed prior to rings replacement. I am not talking about significant diameter increase (+.25mm), but something around +.01 just to make cylinder coating a bit rough to be able to seat rings properly.
I am wondering if it makes sense at all, but I suppose nobody can answer untill I try it myself ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
@manu, how is your burger going after two years? still consuming oil? has the consumption increased or decreased?
I have another heavy drinker :) I suppose more than a liter per 1kkm, not measured yet. It's 2004 400

I've dug a lot of resources and it looks that piston rings are common thing for burgman oil issues. Piston and a cylinder are most often intact, while rings are worn out. I do not know if it's a problem of poor rings design or wrong material used.

I've stumbled upon a guy who used car rings in his burgman and claimed that gotten rid of oil consumption problems at all.
He did not complain anymore, thus I assume he gotten rid of the problem permanentyly :)
2 liters alfa romeo petrol engine has very similar piston ring dimensions to burgman, i.e. 83mm diameter, height 1.2/1.2/2mm.
The piston would need top two grooves to be milled from 1 to 1.2mm, oild ring groove is the same.
I am thinking of going for a top ring set by mehle or goetze and trying it.
A question that comes to my mind is if a cylinder should be honed prior to rings replacement. I am not talking about significant diameter increase (+.25mm), but something around +.01 just to make cylinder coating a bit rough to be able to seat rings properly.
I am wondering if it makes sense at all, but I suppose nobody can answer untill I try it myself ;)
Mine was burning around 1 litre every 1000 km.
I'm checking the oil level this week and I'll let you know, but consumption now is a lot much less than before.
Two things I did: when changing the piston rings I put the gap of the upper ring facing backwards and the gap of the second ring facing forwards, a trick an experimented technician told me when dealing with engines that burn oil. Another trick I did was changing the small piece which goes inside the tube connecting the crankcase and the air filter box. I made one and drilled a hole of 1 mm diameter to avoid so much air with oil going into the air filter. So far no problems and no oil in the filter box. This last trick was indicated by @cliffyk here in this forum.
I have now got ridden of the oil consumption problem.

Do what you think you have to do and get your own conclusions.
 

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Fitting higher tension rings may help a bit in oil consumsion my may ding the gas mileage a SLIGHT amount.


Do not hone the cylinder as it has a very thin coating to help in gas mileage. I would, at most, use some brake cleaner on some green scotchbright scuff pad just to clean any varnish off but not too long.
 
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@Dave_J, are you refering to a nicasil coating? I was pretty convinced it was being used in models since 2007.
Please have a look at quotes below. They are from burgmanusa.com/forums/14-burgman-400-1999-2006-model-years/87834-engine-trouble-4.html, This is actually consistent with my general knowledge about reciprocating engines. However burgman might be specific, that's why I am asking questions before acting ;)

Oversizing the cylinder requires boring the cylinder at a machine shop to the over size piston, it will then need honed. Honing is like sanding the cylinder walls. It must be done in a cross-hatch pattern with the appropriate roughness so the news rings will wear in in the first 1000 miles. Failure to hone prior to new rigs will result in low compression and oil consumption due rings not seating.
I should have explained better.

Honing requires a cylinder hone which is fitted into a drill. You then run it at a slow speed with some oil and move it back and forth in the cylinder{the speed is dependent on the bore size, the smaller the bore the faster the speed}. This sands the cylinder surface in a cross hatch pattern. There are two types of hones, spring type and brush type. As 12string said it prepares the surface for the rings and needs to be done whenever you fit new rings.


Going a size up is to enlarge the bore size by a small amount. In empirical they usually go in 1/100th of an inch sizes larger than original, in metric they go by .25mm each size up{if you convert they are really close to the same size}. To go a size up you have the have the cylinder cut on a special machine how ever many sizes larger you need{a size most likely}. You also have to have a new piston and rings that are that same size larger. They may not exist for the Burgman.
 

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I'm sure DaveJ was referring to the Nikasil coated cylinders of 2007+. Before 2007, the cylinder is a steel sleeve, and can be bored oversize and should be honed prior to fitting new rings.

There's some debate about whether to hone Nikasil cylinders when fitting new rings, but I haven't seen any definitive source. The upside is that the rings may seat quicker. The downside is that the Nikasil is really thin and breaking through it is catastrophic. Plus the cylinder lining is probably harder than the hone, so all you'd be doing is breaking any organic glaze anyway. Which is a fine thing. Maybe.

My mantra is: When in doubt, don't f*ck with it. So I come down on the side of clean it with brake cleaner and oil it with assembly lube if it's Nikasil.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
@szupi I've just checked the oil level this afternoon. So far I'm happy, it burnt around 180 ml the last 1000 km, city driving.
I've checked my agenda and I've seen it burnt 125 ml the previous time I checked the oil also for 1000 km.
So far so good.
 

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@manu, After all, 180m/1000km is not so bad, however for me - used to engines not comsuming oil, it is still much. A liter between oil changes.

Can you tell me if you were honing the cylinder or had it done or it was just cleaned? Did you measure cylinder, piston grooves width to comply with specs or there was just a "bare eye inspection" :)? do you remember how ring grooves looked like, were there carbon residues inside?

Did you go for original suzuki rings or got some replacement?

BTW. regarding rings arrangemet - gap locations are not so significant, since rings are rotating during normal engine operation, it can be 5-10 rotations per minute unles a ring gets jammed in groove due to carbon deposits/oil&dust/soot or whatever.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
@manu, After all, 180m/1000km is not so bad, however for me - used to engines not comsuming oil, it is still much. A liter between oil changes.
Well, then I'm afraid but you shouldn't go for a single cylinder engine, as they all burn oil, some burn more, some burn less. Every internal combustion engine burns oil.

@manu,Can you tell me if you were honing the cylinder or had it done or it was just cleaned? Did you measure cylinder, piston grooves width to comply with specs or there was just a "bare eye inspection" :)? do you remember how ring grooves looked like, were there carbon residues inside?
Nope, I didn't hone the cylinder, neither measure it. I measured the rings and they were a bit worn. The grooves were quite clean I would say, some traces of carbon debris but nothing to worry about.

@manu,Did you go for original suzuki rings or got some replacement?
Yes, original Suzuki parts, no OEM at all.

@manu,BTW. regarding rings arrangemet - gap locations are not so significant, since rings are rotating during normal engine operation, it can be 5-10 rotations per minute unles a ring gets jammed in groove due to carbon deposits/oil&dust/soot or whatever.
I'm afraid to say you are completely wrong here. Once you put the rings in position they stay so. I've checked it myself when doing some major interventions in 4-stroke engines, specially bikes, and the rings stay in position. If they rotated, the wear would be amazingly high and therefore you'd need to change the rings every 5k km.
If there's a lot of carbon debris ni the grooves, then the oil is not correct, or the injection is not working properly.
 

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Well, then I'm afraid but you shouldn't go for a single cylinder engine, as they all burn oil, some burn more, some burn less. Every internal combustion engine burns oil.
My another bike is a cheap chinese bike that has almost 1:1 suzuki gn250 engine copy, single cylinder, 250ccm. I do not have to have a look at oil level between changes. Once filled to max, it holds max at next change. Of course some consumption is inevitable, however it is a matter of mililiters.


I'm afraid to say you are completely wrong here. Once you put the rings in position they stay so. I've checked it myself when doing some major interventions in 4-stroke engines, specially bikes, and the rings stay in position. If they rotated, the wear would be amazingly high and therefore you'd need to change the rings every 5k km.
If there's a lot of carbon debris ni the grooves, then the oil is not correct, or the injection is not working properly.
Unfortunatelly I don't have much of a practical experience, however I am relying on technical information released by amongst all piston ring manufacturing companies. I came across info about rotating rings in several places in case of 4 stroke engines. In the below link I found quite detailed info about piston rings, in chapter 1.6.11 there is info about ring movement.
RING ROTATION
In order to run in and seal perfectly, piston rings must be able
to turn in the ring grooves. The ring rotation is created on the
one hand by the honing structure (cross-hatch), as well as by
the piston rocking movement in the upper and lower piston
dead centre. Flatter honing angles cause less ring rotation and
steeper angles cause higher ring rotation rates. The ring
rotation is also dependent on the engine speed. 5 to 15
rotations per minute are realistic rotation figures – merely as an
indication of the quantity of ring rotations.


cdn2.ms-motorservice.com/fileadmin/media/MAM/PDF_Assets/Piston-Rings-for-Combustion-Engines_53094.pdf

I can imagine that in certain situations like cylinder bore out of round, pistons might get stuct a one position. But as we all know theory does not have to always be in compliance with practise, thus I am not going to advocate anything ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
My another bike is a cheap chinese bike that has almost 1:1 suzuki gn250 engine copy, single cylinder, 250ccm. I do not have to have a look at oil level between changes. Once filled to max, it holds max at next change. Of course some consumption is inevitable, however it is a matter of mililiters.



Unfortunatelly I don't have much of a practical experience, however I am relying on technical information released by amongst all piston ring manufacturing companies. I came across info about rotating rings in several places in case of 4 stroke engines. In the below link I found quite detailed info about piston rings, in chapter 1.6.11 there is info about ring movement.
RING ROTATION
In order to run in and seal perfectly, piston rings must be able
to turn in the ring grooves. The ring rotation is created on the
one hand by the honing structure (cross-hatch), as well as by
the piston rocking movement in the upper and lower piston
dead centre. Flatter honing angles cause less ring rotation and
steeper angles cause higher ring rotation rates. The ring
rotation is also dependent on the engine speed. 5 to 15
rotations per minute are realistic rotation figures – merely as an
indication of the quantity of ring rotations.


cdn2.ms-motorservice.com/fileadmin/media/MAM/PDF_Assets/Piston-Rings-for-Combustion-Engines_53094.pdf

I can imagine that in certain situations like cylinder bore out of round, pistons might get stuct a one position. But as we all know theory does not have to always be in compliance with practise, thus I am not going to advocate anything ;)
Suzuki is not famous for its quality, therefore it burns oil in comparison to Honda or Yamaha.
And I tell what I've seen, I also read manuals, but experience for me is very important.
Maybe the rings rotate, I don't know, but I haven't seen any ring out of place compared to where I installed it, I'm not a technician anyway.
And all in all I'm happy now burning so little oil for a 400-cc single cylinder Suzuki engine, as they're well know for burning litres of oil.
 

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Hi,
Just a small update, it's been nearly two years since my engine rehab. Burgman does not consume oil after breaking in. I rebored the cylinder, user chineese AHL piston, rings and pin set (costed me like 18$). I decided to do a hard break in by motoman :)
 

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Hi,
Just a small update, it's been nearly two years since my engine rehab. Burgman does not consume oil after breaking in. I rebored the cylinder, user chineese AHL piston, rings and pin set (costed me like 18$). I decided to do a hard break in by motoman :)
Did you bore it to an oversize , or just honed it?
 
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