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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
http://www.gizmag.com/duke-engines-axial/33631/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=7b7ef0c546-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-7b7ef0c546-90358106

Saw this article on a new piston engine being developed, called the Duke Engine. Looks interesting and certainly has MC implications given its small size to power ratio. Reminds me of the old Wenkel rotory engines of the 70s. And we all know how they turned out.

So is it a winner or a Wenkel? Does the world really need a new engine configuration? Or has the internal combustion engine seen its last few decades of service in favor of electrics or hybrids? Is the ICE at its pinnacle of development and only incremental improvements possible?

What problems do you foresee in the Duke's development? How long till its a viable power plant we'll see in a production bike?

This is just a fun discussion of the possibilities. I'm interested to see what you gear heads have to say about it. It's is a kinda cool idea.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Personally, I think the whole ICE is dead tech. Oh it'll be around for the rest of our lives, to be sure, but electrics will be the wave of the future. All they need to do is improve the battery tech and the range and charging issues will go away.

The electric motor is already tried and true. We'll need no more gas stations, oil changes and all those messy, polluting emissions. Those will be problems for the electric company to solve. And talk about reliability... Tranny issues, combustion problems, timing woes, all gone. This board will have very little advice to give when electrics take over... "Did you turn it on? Did you charge the battery? Okay, that's the check list." Lol.

Just my two cents.
 

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The claims sound very much like Wankel in the 60's. More power, lighter, more efficient, new breakthrough technology that will change the ICE landscape. Then came reality. Wear issues, reliability problems, efficiency claims that wouldn't be met. For a given displacement there is a wide range of power and efficiency available that is determined by reliability factors and end use. Just like there are 130hp 650 sport bikes and 69hp Harley's. I don't see anything in the design that is going to make it transcendently more efficient. Wait and see.

Kind of like the Elio. I've lusted over many reverse trike vehicles that have come along over the past 30-40 years. HMV and Corbin/Sparrow (and it's descendents) come to mind. Each promising amazing claims of affordability, efficiency, durability. I'm long past the early adopter mentality now. I'll wait and see what actually gets produced with some engineering cred behind it. Until then, I'm riding the IceBurg and smiling while miling.
 

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Keep the good old poppet-valve recip, but give me hydrogen fuel and a much higher compression ratio. As a former EE, let me tell you where you can stick electrochemistry (batteries and fuel cells).
 

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Personally, I think the whole ICE is dead tech. Oh it'll be around for the rest of our lives, to be sure, but electrics will be the wave of the future. All they need to do is improve the battery tech and the range and charging issues will go away.

The electric motor is already tried and true. We'll need no more gas stations, oil changes and all those messy, polluting emissions. Those will be problems for the electric company to solve. And talk about reliability... Tranny issues, combustion problems, timing woes, all gone. This board will have very little advice to give when electrics take over... "Did you turn it on? Did you charge the battery? Okay, that's the check list." Lol.

Just my two cents.
I don't think you're right. People have dreamed about the electric car taking over since the first ones were made in the late 1820s and early 1830s. There was a small revival when the lead acid battery was invented in the later 1800s. I don't think electric cars will succeed without massive government support.

The first Porsche was electric. See:

Porsche purists will tell you the first Porsche was the 356 from 1948. Um, no. Not quite. It’s not the 356/1, the mid-engine precursor to the 356, either. And don’t think you’re being smart mentioning the 1898 Lohner-Porsche Mixte-Hybrid, which was the world’s first gas-electric hybrid. Close, but no. The first car designed by Ferdinand Porsche was the “Egger-Lohner electric vehicle, C.2 Phaeton model,” or P1 for short.
That’s right. It was electric.
The P1 — for “Porsche No. One” — was among the first vehicles registered in Austria when it rolled onto the streets of Vienna on June 26, 1898. Like most “cars” of the era, it was little more than a wagon with a steering wheel and something other than a horse propelling it. Like all proper Porsches, the eng… er, motor was out back, driving the rear wheels. So what if the mill weighed 287 pounds and put down a mere three horsepower. It was 1898, after all.
That said, Ferdinand Porsche, who was just 23 at the time, developed an “overloading” mode that gave the driver another two horsepower. Goose it with the full five horsepower and the 2,977-pound car would reach reach the impressive speed of 22 mph. With a little moderation on the accelerator, the P1 was good for 50 miles, putting it ahead of many gasoline-powered vehicles of the day. And you could say Porsche’s motorsports roots started with the P1, as the car managed to finish a 40-km EV race in 1899. Just how it finished seems to have been lost to history, but Porsche did say half of the 28 entries failed to finish the race.
Just four were built. This one was was discovered in a warehouse in Austria, where it had been sitting unmolested since 1902. It’s all original, and headed to the Porsche Museum in Stuttgart, where it will be joined alongside the automaker’s latest and greatest electric car, the utterly insane 918 Spyder. Truth be told, we’re not sure which one we’d want to drive first…
 

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That is very cool! We used to do that coin balancing trick on our big Komori 40" sheetfed printing presses at the shows. It helped sell a lot of $1,000,000+ presses.
I do like innovation and would like to see it prove to be a viable and versatile engine. Only time will tell.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
I don't think you're right. People have dreamed about the electric car taking over since the first ones were made in the late 1820s and early 1830s. There was a small revival when the lead acid battery was invented in the later 1800s. I don't think electric cars will succeed without massive government support.
So I'm not right because it's never worked in the past. Is that your argument?

History is loaded with examples of things not possible until the right technology comes around. Flight, horseless carriages, computer, etc, etc. virtually Everything ever invented was at some point was not possible, until the right tech was discovered. It's just a matter of time and effort until efficient battery tech is here.

So far as "massive government support", virtually every car company on the planet and several MC companies are researching electrics. Even Harley has an electric bike for Christs sake! No government subsidy necessary.

And there is no better proof of this than to look out your window, or in our case, windscreen. The Nissan Leaf, the Chevy Volt, they're here. It's happened. There are viable electrics TODAY. This is not a trend that's gonna stop. The future is electrics. As much as you may or may not like it, it's here.
 

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Interesting, it reminds me more of the hydraulic motor in my tractor than a Wankel. I noticed that article doesn't say anything about how hard it will be to make it meet emissions requirements. That was the real downfall of the Wankel, they could not clean up the exhaust to meet standards without a bunch of add on stuff.

Where I see a possible weak point is the sealing between the spinning cylinders and the stationary head. Much like wear of the rotor tip seals on the Wankel were a problem I see wear of that seal point as a possible issue.
 

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Buffalo, I agree. If I were an investor with money to burn, I'd rather put it into a modern-materials-and-processes approach to mass producing Harry Ricardo's sleeve valve recip.
 

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We'll see if this hits production in something useful. There are some other neat ICE designs I'd like to see in something, like the Peraves SuperBall.
 

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In a V8 engine, one (1) piston is firing and moving 7 dead ones and the compression losses are eminence.

I played with Mazdas Wankel a lot. I too see the sealing of this engine as a high failure area.
 

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don't think you're right. People have dreamed about the electric car taking over since the first ones were made in the late 1820s and early 1830s. There was a small revival when the lead acid battery was invented in the later 1800s. I don't think electric cars will succeed without massive government support.
Tesla will have a EV with 200 m range at $35k in a couple years.

ICE fuel everywhere else in the world runs $7 per gallon to north of $12.

The ONLY gov support need is to include the cost of damage to the environment and health of fossil fuel and ICE will cease to compete.

Solar is dropping in cost to the point where it's far below fossil when externalities are calculated and withou subsidy but also at parity or below regardless of externalities for many nations.

It's gonna come in a wave like no other in transportation...just ask Norway

Norway to reevaluate EV incentives: too much of a good thing?
Posted February 3, 2014 by Charles Morris & filed under Newswire, The Vehicles.

NIssan LEAF Norway (Elbilforeningen)
EVs may still draw stares in many American cities, but in Norway these days, they don’t merit a second glance. For the last three months, the Model S and the LEAF have been the best-selling cars in the country. Total EV sales are around 1,200 a month, or over 10% of all auto sales.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/norway-to-reevaluate-ev-incentives-too-much-of-a-good-thing/

Norway has had a carbon tax since 1990 and like Denmark taxes the **** out of ICE vehicles to reflect their actual cost to society.

When I started riding nearly 50 years ago fuel was right at the bottom of riding costs.

Now it is far and away the highest cost - higher even than accommodation when outside the US and getting near to parity with accommodation even in the US of long riding days.

I can eat cheap, sleep cheap - I wanna to ride cheap and an EV Burgman with a 1/2 charge time will do it.

Stay tuned.

This is now...164 mile range on a charge...just wait...



ZERO MOTORCYCLES PATROL FLEET
Zero Motorcycles offers police and security motorcycles with customizable options to meet the specific needs of a wide variety of patrol applications.
With the ability to patrol both on and off road areas, the new police and security motorcycles offer unique advantages over internal combustion driven machines. The 100% electric powertrain is nearly silent, exhaust free, produces minimal heat, has instant torque from zero rpm and is highly maneuverable. With a ‘fuel’ cost of a penny per mile and a maintenance-free powertrain, a Zero Motorcycles patrol fleet offers the ability to save your agency money while also giving you a tactical advantage.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/ca/

I'd recommend the movie Charge about EV bikes at the Isle of Mann to see how fast this category is moving.

And Elon Musk and Nevada just bet the farm on it.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/tesla-to-choose-nevada-for-battery-factory-1409773118
 

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on topic...there are many new materials since the Wankel to resolve the seal issue - if it worked, it would extended ICE viability tho mind you some of the German concept cars on the road are getting north of 200 mpg from their diesels.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Tesla will have a EV with 200 m range at $35k in a couple years.


http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/ca/

I'd recommend the movie Charge about EV bikes at the Isle of Mann to see how fast this category is moving.l]
Forgot about Tesla. Good example of what a modern electric can do.

Also, anyone interested in electric bikes should watch the movie "Charge". It was released in 2011, so I'm sure it's even more advanced now. You can see it on Netflix. Its a good movie.
 

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BTW this is out of the blue and many times the energy density of lithium.

http://www.gizmag.com/aluminium-air-battery-could-extend-ev-range-by-1000-km/32454/

Just slide a spare battery in.

If it does 1600 km on a car with 100 kg battery....think about the range on a bike. :D

You recycle the battery sort the same way propane cylinders get swapped.

What a fantastic category for Alcoa to break into.

General thinking for cars it will be an add on to existing lithium - pop one in the trunk and get an additional 1,000 miles.

But for bikes...could be a killer as the weight to energy is so good.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
BTW this is out of the blue and many times the energy density of lithium.

http://www.gizmag.com/aluminium-air-battery-could-extend-ev-range-by-1000-km/32454/

Just slide a spare battery in.

If it does 1600 km on a car with 100 kg battery....think about the range on a bike. :D.
This is the kinda tech that is exciting to me. Today, we can probably get 100 miles on a bike charge. But a few years from now, maybe 1k range. 50 years, maybe 50k miles. Who knows, maybe one day, a 100 years from now, you'll buy a bike that is fully charged for life. No fillups, no top offs, no recharges, ever.

And the motors are dead simple. No trannys, no shifting, no clutches, no combustion problems, no coolant, no oil changes. Nothing. Virtually no maintenance at all. Save for the occasional rubber and brake pad change, Just twist and go for the life of the machine.

And performance like we've never seen except for high end exotics. Our Burgmans with all the extra space for batteries, will be doing 0-60 mph in a couple seconds. It would be really easy to make most bikes two-wheel drive too. Just need another motor up front, like that new bike in India. Anyone up for some off roading? That's exciting stuff for me.

This is why I think ICE is dead tech. It can't compete with electrics in the somewhat foreseeable future.

And for anyone that thinks I'm dreaming or wishful thinking, what do you think people thought was possible in a hundred years in 1914? Jet air travel, rocket ships to the moon, scooters that go over 100 mph? Yup, those happened.
 

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Sorry but this is not a new idea! It has been tried multiple times before with limited success. Mainly it has been used for aircraft. The design is also used as a pump. I think the Hondamatic is a similar design.


This is why I think ICE is dead tech. It can't compete with electrics in the somewhat foreseeable future.
I disagree that the internal combustion engine is dead and electric is king, not yet at least. I do agree that electric has huge potential and will be growing, perhaps even exploding in the market in the next few years. However there are still some hurdles that have to be overcome before electric will completely replace ICEs.

To me the way to make fuel based engines better and cleaner isn't new design but new fuel, hydrogen to be exact.If they can figure out how to process hydrogen in large quantities safely and cheaply then the energy crisis is over! This is especially true for vehicles since the basic engine requires very little changes to run hydrogen. Mainly just the fuel tank, lines and injectors need to be changed. On top of using hydrogen for internal combustion it could also fuel electrics through a fuel-cell generator.
 

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Natural gas may be the big fuel for the immediate future. Our entire City vehicle program is switching to Compressed Natural Gas as I type this. This is around 1,800 vehicles.

We have run study after study on the most economic and environmental friendly source and this was it. We are aware of the big hit in MPG we will see but, it is still half the price of petrol per MPG and much cleaner burning. Our natural gas compression and fill station just went live last week. (If there is one thing we have PLENTY of, its NG).

As for electric, we would have to burn natural gas to generate the electricity to charge all these vehicles, (this is with the addition of two new large solar energy banks). With the power losses down the line, this made more sense.

Converting a Bergman to NG is just a dream but, I can dream can't I?

Kim
 
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