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Discussion Starter #1
Just to dispel that cultural myth, here a snippet from my local newspaper, dated Sept 1 2004.

It was a supplementary to the main story (well page 2) about a major hold up created on the main arterial route along the South Coast after a seven car pile up.

TEMPERS OVERHEAT IN JAMS

TEMPERS rose in the traffic chaos as a motorcyclist threw a car driver’s keys into bushes next to the eastbound A27 at Farlington.

The motorist was left stranded after an argument with the biker broke out as they were stuck in tailbacks at about 7:15pm yesterday.

Before riding off, the motorcyclist leaned in through the car window and took the keys from the ignition. :lol: :lol:

Traffic police spent about 10 minutes helping the driver look for his keys. Anyone with information should call PC Haywood at Cosham traffic police 0845 xxx xxxx
:lol: :lol:

My take on this is the biker was filtering, the cager will have seen him in the mirror and pulled over a bit to block his path. This is a common practice and actually is really annoying. :twisted: The biker’s actions were sweet, priceless and equitable justice! :) I was tempted to leave a message on PC Haywood’s phone asking him if he ever catches that biker to pass on my deepest respect!! :lol: (But discretion is the better part of valour!)
:toothy5:
 

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And if it were me in the cage, would have earned the biker at least a serious injury. And from some of the 'local boys' would have earned him a bullet or 2.

Funny...but stupid.
 

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Kind of funny when you think about it...just the sort of thing many of us have probably wanted to do at some time or another. Filtering, or lane splitting as it's called here, isn't allowed anywhere in the good ol' USA but in California that I know of, thus the hostile attitude. So...how would one contact that traffic section?

Bruce
 

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bwdbrn1 said:
Filtering, or lane splitting as it's called here, isn't allowed anywhere in the good ol' USA but in California that I know of, thus the hostile attitude.

Bruce
That is correct. We tend to be forward thinkers here in CA. Although lane splitting is practiced everywhere else in the world, it is just not "The American Way". We like things neat, organized, orderly, efficient and "fair". Filtering goes against the American grain to the point where some folks think the perpatrators should be run over or gunned down. Even many bikers (not CA riders) think the practice is immoral or suicidal, not bothering to think about all of the situations in which a fella could take himself out of harms way by filtering, which is why it is legal.




Peace.
 

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Lane splitting makes sense to me ... if done with a reasonable amount of caution. Flying by traffic at a 30 MPH difference is sucide in my opinion. Last time I was out in LA, saw a fool doing that.

Read a pretty good article about splitting :

http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/streetsurvival/lanesplit/

One thing bothed me though. The statement, "In fact, I haven't ticked more than half a dozen mirrors in that time." Seems to me if you're ticking mirrors, you're riding dangerously.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
UK Definitions.

Filtering takes place up the outside of cars against a flow of traffic coming the other way.

Lane splitting takes place between lanes of traffic heading in the same direction.

In the UK one is legal (filtering) the other is a judgement call (lane splitting) and can be construed as dangerous driving - a chargeable offence depending upon what was happening at the time.

Generally if you are in free flowing highway traffic all doing the National Speed Limit, then lane splitting would be deemed as dangerous driving. However if there was congestion and traffic was flowing at say 30 - lane splitting could be construed as OK - but the plod on the spot may decide different.

So - I filter as an occupation (what would be the point of having 2 wheels if you did not :wink: ). Lane split - never!
 

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Good points Norman. It is essentially the same thing here in CA, but splitting and filtering are both allowed as long as it is done safely. Your example of a unimpeded traffic flow situation is spot on. That would not be allowed. I split at stop lights and when congestion causes traffic to come to complete halt so that I don't get vaporized in a rear ender.

Incidentally, I lane split in your great country all the time. :wink:





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NormanB said:
...The biker’s actions were sweet, priceless and equitable justice! :)
Yes, tying up all the other cars behind that one while the keys were found was really "equitable." :roll:

Regardless of the perceived offense that initiated it, anyone reaching into my vehicle univited would be pulling back a broken arm at the least.

I'm a trained fighter, and I carry a handgun most of the time. :evil:
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Brian said:
NormanB said:
...The biker’s actions were sweet, priceless and equitable justice! :)
Yes, tying up all the other cars behind that one while the keys were found was really "equitable." :roll:

Regardless of the perceived offense that initiated it, anyone reaching into my vehicle univited would be pulling back a broken arm at the least.

I'm a trained fighter, and I carry a handgun most of the time. :evil:
Brian

I thought you were an ex policeman, I am suprised that you should feel the need to take the law into your own hands in such circumstances never mind reaching for a firearm.

Hey Ho - Cultural differences! :)

'Out of my cold dead hands' - Charlton Heston I believe when he was President of the NRA!
 

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Discussion Starter #10
bwdbrn1 said:
Kind of funny when you think about it...just the sort of thing many of us have probably wanted to do at some time or another. Filtering, or lane splitting as it's called here, isn't allowed anywhere in the good ol' USA but in California that I know of, thus the hostile attitude. So...how would one contact that traffic section?

Bruce
Sorry Bruce

I just noticed that I did not answer you question.

But I guess you knew I blanked out the phone number to limit crank calls from the guys here - mischevious lot that they are :wink:
 

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NormanB said:
Brian said:
Regardless of the perceived offense that initiated it, anyone reaching into my vehicle univited would be pulling back a broken arm at the least.

I'm a trained fighter, and I carry a handgun most of the time. :evil:
Brian

I thought you were an ex policeman, I am suprised that you should feel the need to take the law into your own hands in such circumstances never mind reaching for a firearm.

Hey Ho - Cultural differences! :)
You mean in England, if someone were to attack you, you'd wait until you were beaten, or possibly killed, before calling the police? I always thought self-defense (or self-defence to you) was a rather universal principle.

If someone were to reach into your car, how would you know that taking your keys was all he had in mind? He might just decide to punch your lights out, or slit your throat with a concealed knife.

Reaching into a car during an altercation is no different than kicking in someone's door and entering their house. It's a violent, aggressive act. If a man behaves like a mad dog he needs to be delt with accordingly.

Of course, as an ex-policeman and a current martial artist, I most likely wouldn't have been in the situation to begin with. I wouldn't have cut off the biker (if that's what happened), and if I did accidently impede him I would have apologized or otherwise tried to de-escalate the situation.

But once it reached the point of no return, I would be a fool to simply sit there and let someone violate me like that. You won't find a sign reading: "I'm a victim. Hurt me, please" on this ex-cop.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Brian

As usual your arguments are both eloquent and persuasive.

I have no wish to antagonise you further.

Your course of action ( your para 4) would indeed be the most sensible in most countries.

:)

PS: Under UK law you are indeed allowed to protect yourself using self defence using reasonable force. It is however for the courts to judge in every instance after hearing the evidence if the force you used was reasonable - because you will be charged and brought to trial no matter the circumstance or provocation.
 

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Would grabbing the persons arm. rolling up the window, and dragging them down the street be considered 'reasonable'? :twisted:
 

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NormanB said:
...Under UK law you are indeed allowed to protect yourself using self defence using reasonable force. It is however for the courts to judge in every instance after hearing the evidence if the force you used was reasonable - because you will be charged and brought to trial no matter the circumstance or provocation.
Yep, same here; although what's reasonable varies considerly depending on where you live.

In Texas, for example, a man shot and killed a tow truck driver who was trying to reposess his pick-up truck on which he was many months delinquent on payments.

A Texas court found him not guilty, because Texas law allowed deadly force against someone trying to "steal" your vehicle after sundown (the law was a revision of a law from the horse and wagon days). The fact that it wasn't his truck, but the bank's, didn't seem to come into play.

On the other hand, in Massachusetts (home to the Kennedys) the "retreat law" basically says that if someone kicks in your door and comes at you with a knife you must flee to the upstairs floor. If he chases you up the stairs you must lock yourself in the bathroom. If he starts prying the door to the bathroom you must try to climb out a window. Only if you can't fit through the window could you defend yourself. Okay, a bit of a simplification, but not much.

billmeek said:
Would grabbing the persons arm. rolling up the window, and dragging them down the street be considered 'reasonable'? :twisted:
Probably not; but it sure would be tempting! :twisted:
 

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Discussion Starter #15
billmeek said:
Would grabbing the persons arm. rolling up the window, and dragging them down the street be considered 'reasonable'? :twisted:
No.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Brian said:
NormanB said:
...Under UK law you are indeed allowed to protect yourself using self defence using reasonable force. It is however for the courts to judge in every instance after hearing the evidence if the force you used was reasonable - because you will be charged and brought to trial no matter the circumstance or provocation.
Yep, same here; although what's reasonable varies considerly depending on where you live.
[snipped]
Here is a story from UK which agitated the whole nation - this guy was imprisoned. Tony Martin Case
 

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NormanB said:
Here is a story from UK which agitated the whole nation - this guy was imprisoned. Tony Martin Case
What a crock! Premeditation because he chose to prepare to defend himself and his property? :? I'd call that 'common sense'.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Bill

Thats what most people were outraged about. That and the fact he had been burgled and otherwise intimidated previously so was in genuine fear.

The 'killer' fact that went against him is that he shot the 'neer do well' in the back as the man was running away. The court decided that the threat was therefore not immediate, and had passed, so Martin's action was not actually 'self-defence' as such, so was therefore unlawful.

If he had shot the man in the chest while he was in the property it may have turned out differently for Martin.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Stormsteed said:
.. to add insult to injury.
It certainly did and really angered very many people.

It also links nicely to my rant about the litigous society and how people need to be reasonably responsible for their own safety. To sue for injuries while engaged in a crime is clear patent horseshit. My fear really is though, if they had not dropped their claim - they may well have been successful! :shock:
 
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