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once the batteries for EVs have reached their service life, how recyclable are they? I don't hear/read anything about this.

what happened to 'reduce, repair, recycle'?
Recycled cathodes work better than freshly mined.
Recycling couldn’t get going until batteries started becoming available.

North Volt already produced a 100% recycled battery and are talking about scaling up to 150,000 tons a year.

Li-Cycle have recycle plants in:
Arizona (10,000 tons per year)
New York (10,000 tons)
Alabama (10,000 tons)

Ohio (15,000 tons) coming on line next yr
Rochester plant about to expand to 90,000 tons

Battery Resources in Georgia (30,000 tons)

Cant remember where Redwood and others are up to.
 

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I stand with Toyota....
You might want to come back to that in 6-12 months time.

Industry rumour has it they recognise they‘ve miscalculated and are getting left behind. They have launched a review of their EV strategy, leading to a 180 on what Toyoda said on stage and boosting EV output with a new, more competitive platform.

The review isn’t public yet but lots of chatter, even in the motoring press:
Toyota is pulling a 180 on it’s weak EV strategy
 

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Old style Nissan Leaf batteries had serious problems (they couldn’t source batteries and tried to do it in-house), but that didn’t produce anywhere near enough dead batteries to make commercial recycling viable.

A lot of those batteries were reused in factory robots and are still running about.

Some of the pouch batteries went to research facilities to play with, like Faraday in UK. where ultrasonic leaching was developed to strip lithium and cobalt from the aluminium and copper support foils.
This gives a very pure product ready for reuse and takes seconds instead of up to an hour.
It is far more energy efficient than “black mass” hydrometallurgical recycling that Li-cycle use.

There is also pyrometallurgy but it’s more energy again. The thing that makes lithium so useful is the spare electron that like to go walk about around other materials and that also causes complications if you are going to turn them into hot soup.

Main problem is that it’s labour intensive to dismantle the battery units. There is pressure on manufacturers to make this easier, (nissan’s were actually quite handy for that) but a lot depends on whether it’s a cylindrical, prismatic or pouch form factor.
 

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The problem of making Lithium batteries is keeping vaporized Dihydrogen Monoxide out of the mixing chambers. The chambers are under a high vaccume and heat to block Dihydrogen Monoxide vapors.
 
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That seems pretty technical. Did you work for a lithium battery manufacturer?
No. But once, while staying at a Holiday Inn, their Lobby coffee pot had some extremely hot liquid Dihydrogen Monoxide excape and caused a bad burn on my arm.
 

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Vacuums play an important role when mixing the slurry of lithium metal oxides and binders it stops any gas bubbles that would reduce performance.

Its also important for degassing during assembly so that lithium ions can move freely when charging/discharging.

(there is work being done using Dihydrogen Monoxide as the electrolyte instead of the flammable electrolytes used now, but that’s another story)
 

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The H2O needs to be pure. In its simple pure form, water does not conduct voltage well and has a higher boil point.

Where H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide) is used in a lot of manufacturing, but it is a bit too unstable in "True Blue" form and will cause burns on skin. For first aid use it is in dilute to 3% with pure H2O.

So if they try to use H2O as the Electrolyte, they will need to blend it with some sort of antifreeze, I'm guessing Calcium Carbonate. Sodium is too corrosive.

I am at the limit of my High School Chemistry classes from 50 years ago......
 
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The H2O needs....
One team worked on a Water In Salt battery that significantly cuts down the energy required in manufacture. It uses a lithium salt and an ionic liquid combo that isolates the water as individual molecules. That way it doesn’t behave the way a bubble of water would.

Aqueous lithium ion batteries aren’t quite there yet. They have been relatively low voltage and not as long lived but it’s an interesting field.

Trouble is there a bazillion non lithium chemistries that might make it all redundantso it’s hard to know which possibilities are worth pursuing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #58 ·
Hi everyone. Hope all in USA had a great holiday.. Just wanted to share another video on the topic that I ran across from a friend.. Some of the info maybe a little dated but so is the presenter. I remember him from his old shows. Still alive and kickn tho..


Also came across this from one of my fave's regarding right to repair. I'm big into that... This seems to be affecting more and more things, not just cars unfortunately.. Phones, appliances, tv's :confused:


This vid also goes over some other 'hidden' costs regarding EVs in the USA. She is very pro EV more so then 'blue' here but her channel does go over some of the downsides and gives her real life ownership exp with them in the USA. Some of the ownership downsides may not be as severe... Of course, most owners are living in the CO2 fantasy land but her anecdotal exp as a EV owner is definitely useful even if a lot of it was subsidized on our dime.. 😒


BTW, a lot of these vids are avail on alt sources. I used utube links for forum.. Try the alternatives, odysee etc if you can.

Regarding Blue's 'feeling' of guilt by assn.. You didn't quote anything but I hope you had a good weekend also and you have a good equivalent holiday 😃... Here's a quick therapy session for you and anyone else who are true believers in logical fallacies and think doctor who is working with govt's to save us all. Really worth watching, clips only around 4 mins, even if you aren't.. 🤣

Not kidding, once if confirm you're not a bot or a baizuo, I'll gift you a paper copy of the book ;)
 

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thundercat,

Thanks for your continued efforts in The Great Green Debate.
Please see the following and make adjustments to keep everyone safe
and having fun.

 

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Up here in Washington state our Kelowatt is about $0.095 for the first 600kw then $0,102 for all the above that 600kw. So EV is a bit cheap to run. And charging does not add the $1,209 per gallon Road Tax we pay but these EV are causing the same wear to the roads as my wifes Buick Regal.
 
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