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Discussion Starter #1
Hi; I have an 06 standard 650 that is going through the brake handle interlock switches every 3 months or so.
The fourth set is being installed at dealership as I write this. Luckily, they are eating the cost since it started
right after I bought the bike in early 2011. The dealer spoke with Suzuki rep who had no solution for the issue.
So now I come to the font of all knowledge for any suggestions that may remedy this situation.
Thanks in advance. Kopilot
 

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Only thing I can think of is there is to much current going through them. Those are also your brake light switches. Does the bike by any chance have some kind of aftermarket brake light on it.
 

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Buffalo said:
Does the bike by any chance have some kind of aftermarket brake light on it.
Yah something like halogen bulbs or additional brake lights?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
No extra brake lights at this time. Not sure what po may have done to the lights back there in the past.
Maybe I should change the brake light bulbs out just to have a starting point. I'm going to pick up bike on Saturday.
Cost me 113 bucks this time. Seems like last time it the switches went out was aug of 2011. I did not realize it
had been that long. Looking back this set is the third set since buying the bike in oct of 2010. Still seems like a lot
of switches.
 

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Yes it does seem like a lot. People occasionally have one go bad but they are generally fairly reliable. I've never had a problem with mine. $113 seems kind of high. Suzuki list price for them is $28.84 but you can get them online for $23 or so and it takes just minutes to change one out. Undo one plug and remove one screw.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
tell me about it..that is actually half price since I have a maintenance agreement that included half price on this type of work.
I changed the switch once on my 400 and you're right it's no big deal. If this happens again I will do the on-line route.
I am no fan of dealer work at 90 plus dollars per hr especially when it's trouble shooting time they're charging me for.
 

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It would seem that there is too much current going through them as previously suggested. The normal current passed is for the starter relay-coil which is only a few milliamps. Did the dealer measure this current? If not I suggest you/they carefully measure the relay current with an ammeter to see what's happening. First off I would suspect the starter switch having an intermittent internal short - this has been reported on this forum a number of times.
 

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The starter relay is a fast-acting high clamping force relay, according to the 650 specs its coil resistance is 3 to 6? (the 400 is the same). At 12V that's 2 to 4A. Automotive starter solenoids are usually only 2 to 3? drawing 3 to 6A...
 

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cliffyk said:
The starter relay is a fast-acting high clamping force relay, according to the 650 specs its coil resistance is 3 to 6? (the 400 is the same). At 12V that's 2 to 4A. Automotive starter solenoids are usually only 2 to 3? drawing 3 to 6A...
Yes, well I didn't know the resistance, so mA was off the top of my head. Anyway 2-4A is not not a problem, the failure current to be very much greater if a short exists.
 

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I agree, the first thing I'd do would be to slap a current probe on there and see what the starter circuit is drawing...

Speaking of drawings, I just took a look at the '07 650 overall wiring and starter circuit diagrams. There is a reverse EMF snubber diode in parallel with the starter relay, shown on the overall diagram, that is not shown in the starter system diagram:

Here it is in the overall diagram:



And here I have added it to the starter circuit diagram:



If that diode were blown the considerable kickback from the collapsing solenoid coil could arc across the contacts of the switches it is intended to protect--the starter button and brake-light switches--causing them to fail prematurely. With the lighter duty and/or the one(s) released first taking the brunt of the kickback.

It is #2 in this photo:


The OP might want to have that diode tested.
 

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cliffyk said:
I just took a look at the '07 650 overall wiring and starter circuit diagrams. There is a reverse EMF snubber diode in parallel with the starter relay, shown on the overall diagram, that is not shown in the starter system diagram:
The OP might want to have that diode tested.
Okay, then the first test should be running with this diode replaced or temporarily removed.
 

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cliffyk said:
If that diode were blown the considerable kickback from the collapsing solenoid coil could arc across the contacts of the switches it is intended to protect--the starter button and brake-light switches--causing them to fail prematurely. With the lighter duty and/or the one(s) released first taking the brunt of the kickback.
I don't believe he said he was having a problem with his starter switch unless he releases the brake switches when starting before the starter switch.
 

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MJR said:
cliffyk said:
If that diode were blown the considerable kickback from the collapsing solenoid coil could arc across the contacts of the switches it is intended to protect--the starter button and brake-light switches--causing them to fail prematurely. With the lighter duty and/or the one(s) released first taking the brunt of the kickback.
I don't believe he said he was having a problem with his starter switch unless he releases the brake switches when starting before the starter switch.
The coil draws as much current as an ignition coil, so the reverse current is huge - probably enough to fry the small switches even when closed, when not protected by the diode.

Bring out the $10 multimeter and switch it to diode test.
 

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MJR said:
cliffyk said:
If that diode were blown the considerable kickback from the collapsing solenoid coil could arc across the contacts of the switches it is intended to protect--the starter button and brake-light switches--causing them to fail prematurely. With the lighter duty and/or the one(s) released first taking the brunt of the kickback.
I don't believe he said he was having a problem with his starter switch unless he releases the brake switches when starting before the starter switch.
The OP stated the brake-light switches are failing. As the power to the starter relay and the back EMF when the relay field collapses flow through the brake switches and the starter switch en route to the relay, any one or all could fail prematurely due to the diode being blown. However my experience has been the starter switches on bikes are generally more robust than the brake-light switches, if this is the case then I would expect the brake-light switches to fail first.
 

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if you are frying your switches on a regular basis, it's pretty much an indication of too much juice, should be easy enough to diagnose and correct.

they should be able to tell you at the dealership how much juice is flowing into the switch. disconnect the main wires and use a multimeter to measure the power input...

can also be a faulty relay, they can check that for you at the dealership too. This is not something you should have to deal with if it is under warranty.


good luck...
 

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cliffyk said:
The OP stated the brake-light switches are failing. As the power to the starter relay and the back EMF when the relay field collapses flow through the brake switches and the starter switch en route to the relay, any one or all could fail prematurely due to the diode being blown. However my experience has been the starter switches on bikes are generally more robust than the brake-light switches, if this is the case then I would expect the brake-light switches to fail first.
And that voltage would have to go through the resistance of the brake lamp bulbs. I'm just saying that it's more likely load from bulbs (halogen or bad bulbs) drawing to much or an intermittent short rather than a diode. The 650's starter switch is anything but robust.

I once had a car that would blow the backup lamp fuse if the lights were on too long. It turned out one of the 1156 bulbs would short out internally if power was kept to it for more than a minute. Another vehicle I had what was suppose to be a 1157 bulb (had a dual contact base) but had a single filiment bulb (1156) in the base. I've also seen the lead contacts on a bulb deform allowing the contact to connect or short to the case.

I would pull out the bulbs, check, and even just replace them since they are cheap enough.
 

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The brake lights could indeed be overloading the brake light switches, as that power is in parallel with the power passed through them to the starter relay, adding to what the switch is being asked to do.

In any event, as LeDude and others have put forth determining the load the switches are being asked to handle is a trivial task. With a $90 clamp-on DC current probe your could test each wire in and out of the switches in minutes--getting at the wiring would be the most time consuming task.

But do not discount the snubber diode. It is likely absorbing in the area of 200+ V when the power to the starter relay is cut. Here's a scope trace of the back-EMF of the starter relay of a 1990 Miata, a -232 V spike:

 

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I know that a bulb's got zero resistance when current starts to flow through it, but how is it when the tension goes from steady-state 12V to 200V ? In the following I assume the initial resistance is the steady-state resistance @ 12V supply.

If I round up 21 watts to 24, then I is 2A and R 6 ohm. 200 V divided by 6 ohm is 33.3A

2 bulbs gives 66.6 A and I think that will make contact points designed for 4A quite hot.
 

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ErikDK said:
I know that a bulb's got zero resistance when current starts to flow through it, but how is it when the tension goes from steady-state 12V to 200V ? In the following I assume the initial resistance is the steady-state resistance @ 12V supply.

If I round up 21 watts to 24, then I is 2A and R 6 ohm. 200 V divided by 6 ohm is 33.3A

2 bulbs gives 66.6 A and I think that will make contact points designed for 4A quite hot.
And the bulbs will blow out pretty quickly.
 

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IMO I don't think it has anything to do with the bulbs and I wouldn't go too deep into it. For me the two issues are, in order of probability: a starter switch short or the back EMF of a leaky diode.
 
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