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Discussion Starter #1
Since we do love Rotella T 15w-40....

Phosphorus (a component of ZDDP - Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate) is the key component for valve train protection in an engine, 1600ppm ( parts per million) used to be the standard for phosphorus in engine oil. In 1996 the EPA forced that to be dropped to 800ppm and then more recently in 2004 to 400ppm again.

Valve trains and their components are now wearing out faster and this drop in phosphorus content has been a problem for many engines (especially those with flat-tappet type cams). Unfortunately, it's the second most destructive substance to shove through a catalytic converter. Since most of us don't have cats on our Burgies...well......

When the US government mandated a 150,000 mile life time on catalytic converters, the quickest way to do that was to drop phosphorous levels and bugger the valve train problem. Literally.

Shell Rotella T 15w-40 has also maintained a very high level of phosphorus have at least 1400ppm which is not classified as energy/fuel conserving oils and thus do not interfere with the precious government CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) ratings. This also means that they don't get the coveted ratings of other oils but they do protect your valve train. The same rule of thumb is true for racing oils like Royal Purple - because they're not classified as energy / fuel conserving, it would seem they still contain good quantities of ZDDP.

IF you were not aware, Rislone manufactures an oil supplement to boost the ZDDP content of your existing oil.

http://www.barsproducts.com/catalog/...treatment-4401

GM part number 12345501 oil additive (4 ounce bottle).

Since it doesn't do anything else to the oil besides increased ZDDP, it SHOULD not be detrimental to clutches, as it has 4-stroke motorcycle engine instructions as well.
But feel free to add to the discussion!

Just a little FYI for 2013
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Reading more on it:

Simple terms, the oil companies don't add ZDDP into there oil as much as they used to and any oil that makes its way through the exhaust in forms such as blow by's or bad PVC valve ect will collect in the catalytic converter and make it useless, like silicon(e) based products can do.

The government made it mandatory for the catalytic converters to last at least 5 years so this is why there is no surprise to why the drop in the ZDDP came out about the same time.

This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time and they say to add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your oil, it’s only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can.

For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to “stand” the molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and friction.

This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and tappet from contacting each other. Only at very high pressures such as on a flat tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the surface. This high pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need for ZDDP in diesel engines.

Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer to the metal. But that too much of the moly will create problems and lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage, by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much but necessary.

So, while we use Shell Rotella in our 650's, it doesn't have moly in it. Does moly affect our clutches?? Is there even a need for ZDDP in our 650s?
 

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QuantumRift said:
Valve trains and their components are now wearing out faster and this drop in phosphorus content has been a problem for many engines (especially those with flat-tappet type cams). Unfortunately, it's the second most destructive substance to shove through a catalytic converter. Since most of us don't have cats on our Burgies...well......
Just a little FYI for 2013
I am not aware of valve trains wearing out faster. The repair shops I know don't have valve train issues with vehicles they repair. Where is it a problem?

I remember the panic when unleaded gas was forced on us. There were dire predictions of burned valves due to the lack of lead to lubricate and cushion the valves. It didn't happen.

I think this is a solution to a non-problem.
 

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^+1, We have run several cars to well over 200k miles with no valve train or other engine problems; an '89 Celica (333k), a '90 Miata (365k), a '92 Miata (235k), a 1994 Corolla (220k) and a 2006 Toyota RAV 4 (240k). My wife's 2003 Highlander has 185k and my Mustang has 140k. Never had valve train problems with any of them--all running either 10W-40 or 20W-50 dino oil, or 10W-40 synthetic, all changed regularly at 2500 to 3000 miles.

The 4.6 L SOHC engine used in the Mustang has been widely used here in the US in taxi-cabs and police cruisers, many gathering well over 300k miles. Valve train failures are extremely uncommon is the modern world.

My last "real" bike was a 1988 Vulcan 1500 which I bought in May of 1989, I had it for 21 years (sold it 3 months after getting my '03 400) and rode it 185,000 miles--all on dino oil, 10W-30 in colder climates and 20W-50 here in Florida. The only problem I ever had was with the water pump ceramic seal at 55k or so IIRC...
 

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The wifes 98 Buick Century with the dreaded 3.1L is at about 250K miles, but the light for the ODO and gear position has stopped working so unsure on the true miles. I change the oil with 5W30 Dino twice a year no matter how many miles we think we have gone. The last time the Odo was lit was at 231K miles 4 years ago. :D No EOS, Rislone, STP, DuraLube, Slick-50..... Just Dino oil and a new filter every time.

My 78 Dodge Little Red Express with the flat tappet cam 360 is at over 230K miles on just Delo 400 or Rotella 15W40. But it has no Cat's, EGR, air pumps. I did a rebuild on it at about 120K miles only to HOP it up. Standard size taller flat-top pistons for a 10.5:1 compression ratio, a hotter Comp Cams Extreme Hyd flat tappet cam, roller rockers, Ported heads, oversized oil passages,.... all for 425 HP from a 360 CI. Used the same bearings but new rings.

I have used a bit of Marvel Mystery Oil in the oil like two weeks before an oil change to loosen everything up. I have used it more so in the gas. But its just a "Vis Oil" or "Snake Oil". Kerosene and Perfumes.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
On an engine that has been properly maintained, there's nothing to 'loosen' up...it's not a constipated colon. Oil changes with good oil and good filters will keep everything clean. So i don't mess with mystery oil. I just changed the oil on my 'Zu 2.6L engine and I added a bottle 'O Rislone ZDDPl. It now has 202 thou on the odometer and I've been maintaining it and it runs like a Japanese sewing machine. 24 years old (bought it new) and this past week I had to replace the Thermal Valve (TV) and the EGR back pressure transducer as well as cracked vacuum lines, etc.....
 

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QuantumRift said:
On an engine that has been properly maintained, there's nothing to 'loosen' up...it's not a constipated colon. Oil changes with good oil and good filters will keep everything clean..............
Try that on a mid 90's Toyota V6 Pu-truck. SLUDGE factory! Even using the best oil and changing it at 3000 miles, in 75,000 miles it has gained about 5 pounds in pure SLUDGE. It gets so thick that the cams can not push the valves open enough. SNAP Dodge Durango, same crap.
 

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rislone, is this a tomato base or a white sauce?
 

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mikeyMarine said:
rislone, is this a tomato base or a white sauce?
Anti-diarrhea. :twisted:
 

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Discussion Starter #10
At 3000 miles? The first mistake would be to KEEP such an engine.....

More discussion on 'sludgy' Toyotas.....

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... mber=52941


Dave_J said:
Try that on a mid 90's Toyota V6 Pu-truck. SLUDGE factory! Even using the best oil and changing it at 3000 miles, in 75,000 miles it has gained about 5 pounds in pure SLUDGE. It gets so thick that the cams can not push the valves open enough. SNAP Dodge Durango, same crap.
 

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:happy1: :lol:
 

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Desert Rat said:
:happy1: :lol:
Mike, Rislone does not taste good on Pop Corn, just Mashed Spuds and Broccoli. For Pop Corn, I use Marvel Mystery Oil. :roll: :wink:
 
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