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Discussion Starter #1
I'll be working on a friend's 2007 400 this week. He's been complaining that the rear wheel is turning when the engine is at idle. The idle speed seems to be about right (14-1500 rpms) from the last time we rode together.

In just a quick search through past threads, it seems like the bearing closest to the wheel in the clutch or driven pulley might be at fault. Does anyone have any other ideas?
I'd like to go into this with as much info beforehand as possible.

We'll be replacing his clutch and CVT belt...and probably a few broken CVT cover bolts, since the dealership has over torqued them.

Chris
 

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My experience with rubber band drive scooters-----on all the rear wheel will turn a little as they idle on center stand. Stop wheel rotation with rear brake----if engine dies, something wrong, otherwise, normal.
 

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It is very likely the roller bearing on the inboard end of the driven pulley idle assembly is dry and dragging. The fish-oil in the OEM grease bleeds out of the soap base and all that is left is hardened up goop. When the grease hardens torque is transmitted from the driven pulley assembly to the output shaft, making the wheel spin a bit.

When this happens there is often a "tick-tick-tick" coming from the rear end when you roll the bike about. Here is a You Tube video is of a 2005 presenting the very issue.

On my '03 with a new and properly lubricated bearing (I used Green Grease) the rear wheel does not rotate even a bit when on the centerstand with the engine running. Check the outboard ball-bearing in the drive pulley assembly hub as well. Mine was OK but a bit stiff, working in some Green Grease made it like new...
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks, CliffyK. In 68,000 miles with these Burgman 400's, I've never had it happen to me and it doesn't come up often on the forum.

John, I agree that if it did just a little, I wouldn't worry about it. However, from his description of things, I expect to find something wrong when I open it up. He's having to hold the brake to keep the bike from moving forward at a stop. Not good. :(

Chris
 

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Chris
I had that problem and the cause was the clutch springs, replaced the springs and the problem stopped. It does now turn very, very slowly at idle sometimes not at all.
 

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Daboo said:
Thanks, CliffyK. In 68,000 miles with these Burgman 400's, I've never had it happen to me and it doesn't come up often on the forum.

John, I agree that if it did just a little, I wouldn't worry about it. However, from his description of things, I expect to find something wrong when I open it up. He's having to hold the brake to keep the bike from moving forward at a stop. Not good. :(

Chris
My '03 only had 12.3k on it when I got it in May of 2011, a "garage queen" most of it's life--garages which here in Florida often reach 110°F+ in the summer. I suspect that that and limited use (the PO also had a Silverwing, a Kawasaki Voyager and a Ducati 850) may have had something to do with the OEM grease separating.

All that said, having to hold the brake to keep the bike from creeping is not good--there's not much in there, it should be something obvious once you get it open--take photos!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
InfernoST said:
Chris
I had that problem and the cause was the clutch springs, replaced the springs and the problem stopped. It does now turn very, very slowly at idle sometimes not at all.
CliffyK, I agree on the photos. It might be interesting for others who trust dealerships to see just how bad their service can be. I started a thread on this a month or so ago. The bolts I removed were way overtightened. The foam air cleaner for the CVT was so packed with grime that no air could get through. The front bolt that holds the outer CVT cover on was missing...only to be found under the outer cover where they'd put it into the inner CVT cover instead...and didn't care enough to pull it out and put it on right. :roll:

InfernoST - that's the other cause I was thinking about. It would be nice if that was the cause because he's coming over with a new OEM clutch.

There just isn't that much in there to cause a problem that I can think of. It's beautiful in its simplicity and efficiency.

I'd tell him to bring the bike over tonight, but there's a limit to friendship. The Seahawks are playing the Packers tonight. My two favorite teams on Monday night football? I know where I'll be. :lol:

Chris
 

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I have only ever trusted two motorcycle dealerships in my life. One is now 1500 miles away and it was 20+ years ago that I had anything to do with them, the other went out of business 10 years ago because the owner (his family, since the 1920s) told Harley Davidson he was in business "...to sell motorcycles, not clothing!"--they pulled his franchise...
 

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Daboo said:
There just isn't that much in there to cause a problem that I can think of. It's beautiful in its simplicity and efficiency.
Most definitely :thumbup: .

Daboo said:
I'd tell him to bring the bike over tonight, but there's a limit to friendship. The Seahawks are playing the Packers tonight. My two favorite teams on Monday night football? I know where I'll be. :lol:
I hear that, enjoy the game.
 

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I've got a 650; with the hi-tech, hi-risk transmission.

It spins the rear tire on idle also.

On my little cross-country trip, across Colorado...mornings were cold; I tended to start the thing on the stand and warm it up till I got two bars on the temperature indicator. The rear wheel spun...ALWAYS.

On starting, I can see it, as the engine tended to fast idle. But it would settle right down; and the wheel kept goin' round.

It's probably better that way. Whatever's causing it, wants to turn the internals. Holding the rear tire with the parking brake, will just cause friction at that point. Letting it turn free...minimizes that.

Idle is at ll00 or so.
 

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Daboo said:
<snip>It might be interesting for others who trust dealerships to see just how bad their service can be. I started a thread on this a month or so ago. The bolts I removed were way overtightened. The foam air cleaner for the CVT was so packed with grime that no air could get through. The front bolt that holds the outer CVT cover on was missing...only to be found under the outer cover where they'd put it into the inner CVT cover instead...and didn't care enough to pull it out and put it on right.</snip>
Chris
I would say "that's incredible!" except that is isn't, it is unfortunately and despairingly close to "typical". We have a cat that is better qualified to be described as "trained" than most "mechanics" at the $59.50/half hour shops...
 

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an extreme case of dust/dirt inside clutcharea could cause pads not to retract fully, and if dealer is as bad as suggested, maybe a little final gear oil thrown in the mix might" compound" it

if you need someone to help cuss, my hourly rates are low, with a special special discount for cussing dealership service centers that do poor work, hey this is a" legitimate" business! it's in the Bible prophets used to hire out cussins, I'm bringin it back !! and it's tax freeeeeeee oops this would be advertising wouldn't it , nah , nobody is buying and advertising requires an expectation of sales
 

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Mine rotates every now and then, depends on the idle speed. Touch it with your foot..if it stops but you can feel it pulling, maybe it's just a dirty clutchbell. Mine will always stop when I put my foot on it, and it never rotates very fast. The little 150cc scoot always rotates at start up. Good luck~!
 

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I agree with RandyT. Mine stops with my foot also. If you can do that I don't think there is any problem.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Well, Doug just left. The bike is running well...now. :)

We both kept thanking God for how one bolt after another would come loose without breaking. The only way to have taken pictures of it, was to have made a movie. Doug tapped the bolt head lightly a few times, then put the 8mm socket on and begin applying pressure. There would be a sudden give of the bolt for something like a tenth of a turn, then he'd have to slowly add more pressure to loosen it further with a lot of effort. I have no idea how much torque was on those bolts, but it was far more than the 8 ft lbs in the service manual.

Doug spent probably 10 minutes trying to get the four screws out of the ring on the back of the variator and that's after using penetrating oil on the screws. (He put some penetrating oil on the bolts above as well.)

I wish I'd taken a picture of the inside of the variator. Imagine how bad you've ever seen the dust buildup inside the variator...and multiply that by 10. I took it out into the middle of the yard to begin blowing it out with compressed air and then spent quite a bit of time just cleaning it out.

But the problem for why the rear wheel was spinning was the clutch. Here are a couple pictures.

[attachment=0:3ji9ucae]P1040119.JPG[/attachment:3ji9ucae][attachment=1:3ji9ucae]P1040117.JPG[/attachment:3ji9ucae]
The dealership told him he did not have a problem when he brought it in. :shock: :shock: :shock:

Not only did the dealership charge him more for everything they did for the past 30,000 miles, but they cost him money through their incompetence. The inside of the clutch bell looks the same as the "pads" on the clutch, so it will now cost him a new clutch bell. But remember, they said he didn't have a problem.

Doug is now sold on doing his own work. He's been like me in the past, afraid to pick up the first tool to start in case you screw something up. But how can you screw things up worse than this?

Chris
 

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Wow that's crazy~! I'd take the clutch and clutchbell to the dealership and ask them if they even took the thing apart to check. If you said there was so much dust and crap in there, and you couldn't even remove the cover..I doubt if they even opened it up, and just charged him for the inspection instead of doing anything.
 

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Stuff like this irritates me, people pay good money to have their machines serviced the least they can do is at least look at the bike. :twisted:

Great job Chris. :thumbup:
 

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does this service center have an email addy ? we could send him a thousand letters of shame on you and maybe get a big discount on a clutch or bell or both from the busa gang email for you
 

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Well I guess we at least now know more about the absolute lifespan of the triple-shoe '07 clutch. I am stunned that it was not making some sort of banshee like shriek on starting out?

Obviously the dealer never even pulled the cover, if they had only an arm-less blind man could have (possibly) not recognized that the clutch was worn to the service limit some time ago, and shot to crap for the last 2500 or more.

When was the last time the dealer worked on it?

When I got my '03 with 12.3k miles the CVT covers had never been off and the bolts were very tight as you describe; as were the ramp plate retainer screws. I have found this, I.e. fasteners tightened far beyond the service torque specs, to be common on factory installed components on many vehicles not just bikes. A great tool to use is one of the battery powered 1/4" hex impact drivers. I have an 18V unit from Milwaukee that can generate 120 lb-ft if you lean on it, and will remove things like the cover bolts and retainer screws with just a light "tap".
 
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