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Discussion Starter #1
My friend was showing me this ap for finding non-ethanol gas. I thought it was pretty cool until I saw that the price for this so called "Pure Gas" was more than the overly processed ethanol gas.....REALLY?
Should a product that requires less processing cost more? It doesn't at most of the non-ethanol stations I go to but give it a special ap and call it "Pure" and the price goes up.

What a strange time we live in........:rolleyes:
 

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Processing for the gasoline in the ethanol/gas blends cost a little less than processing for pure gas of the same octane rating because ethanol raises the octane rating. If you remove the ethanol from 10 percent ethanol blend 87 octane regular then you end up with 84.5 octane pure gas.
 

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The reason diesel and Jet A are more expensive is that they are processed from the same gravity of crude and there is a heck of a demand for both. Only so much of either can be made so the demand for both rises and so does the price.

Greg
 

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What I don't understand is regular gas with %10 ethanol is $3.49 here. So you would think regular without ethanol would (should) cost %10 more. Instead ethanol free regular cost $4.49 here. And that's at a normal gas station. I can only imagine what it would cost at a boat dock. Okay so Craig says it costs more to bring the octane back up, but 87 octane without ethanol still should cost less than or equal to mid grade or high test. :confused:
 

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You don't need an app but I can see why it would be handy - lugging around a PC would be a pain. I have one station that sells ethanol-free gas in their mid grade 89 octane. The price is pretty good. I burn it in my two scooters and the Karmann Ghia. The VW burns stove oil.

http://pure-gas.org/
 

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Diesel is almost unprocessed but its more expensive than premium. Jet-A is $2 more than that for the same stuff.
Diesel used to be unprocessed but the government forced regs on removing sulfur from it and now it is more costly to process, although there is less smoke now.
 

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What I don't understand is regular gas with %10 ethanol is $3.49 here. So you would think regular without ethanol would (should) cost %10 more. Instead ethanol free regular cost $4.49 here. And that's at a normal gas station. I can only imagine what it would cost at a boat dock. Okay so Craig says it costs more to bring the octane back up, but 87 octane without ethanol still should cost less than or equal to mid grade or high test. :confused:
A lot of other things figure into the price. For one thing the Federal Government mandates that a specific number of gallons of ethanol be blended into motor vehicle fuels. That amount increases every year. They set it up that way because they expected gasoline use to continue rising at historic rates. However because of the increase in fuel economy newer cars are getting fuel use has not risen as fast as they once thought it would. The net effect of that is we are hitting the point that oil companies need to blend the max amount of alcohol into every gallon of fuel sold to meet their federal quotas. That severly limits the amount of non ethanol fuel available. Following the rules of supply and demand, that drives the price of it up.
 

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You forgot greed.
I had no intention of enumerating all the pressures driving the price. However I will say that of those greed is probably the weakest. Of course it is always easier to just blame it on those greedy so and so's.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
All very interesting But.....
Then why is it that at the rural/country stations that don't advertize with the "pure gas" ap that non-ethanol/ non-designer gas is cheaper then any other grade or blend? ...and I get better MPG with it too?
 

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Two words, government regulations. In an ideal world we would be buying gasoline in a free market and that market would drive what we buy and what we pay for it. We are not in that ideal world though. Government regulations affect the type of fuel that gets sent to specific areas. In many urban areas that means the gas they get needs the ethanol blended into it to get the right octane numbers. As more areas get sucked into those control zones non-ethanol fuel becomes harder to find and more expensive. Here is just one article you can find addressing the issue. http://thegazette.com/2013/09/16/new-regulation-could-widen-price-gap-between-ethanol-non-ethanol-fuels/
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Does Octane have anything to do with MPG then?
It seems like the ethanol lowers mine.....or is that apples to oranges?
 

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No octane does not affect MPG. What does affect it though is that ethanol has less energy per gallon than gasoline does so you have to burn more of it to get the same power.

Octane and energy content are not the same. Octane is just a fuels resistance to causing pre-ignition in an engine. Energy content is how many BTUs you get for a given amount of fuel. It takes roughly 1.4 gallons of ethanol to get the same energy content as 1.0 gallon of gasoline. However ethanol has an octane rating of 114. So when you mix ethanol at a 1 to 9 ratio with gasoline to get 10% gasohol you end up with a fuel that has a lower energy content but a higher octane rating. You get less mpg but your engine is less likely to knock.

You also get less emissions because the gasohol blend burns cleaner than pure gasoline. When blended with gasoline Ethanol acts as an oxygenate to reduce the amount of carbon monoxide and soot produced when it is burned.
 

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I have an ap on my phone that you can track the type of gas used along with pretty much every parameter you would want to with relation to gas.

As it turned out, my truck had zero difference in MPG with regards to the pure gas and E10. I've been testing this for 8 months, and it made no difference.

I use pure gas on all my small engines, ie lawn mowers, weed eaters, tillers etc. E10 is blended gas. Blended gas separates, very much like oil and water separates. Once separated the ethanol rises to the top and evaporates into the air of the tank. Once evaporated to the it absorbs atmospheric water so much so that it will rust a tank within a month.

So the moral of the story is don't use Ethanol blended gas on anything that will sit for any extended amount of time, ie more than 3 or 4 days. Normal riving around will slosh the fuel around enough to keep it mixed, but just sitting in your shed will not.

Carbureted engines are exceptional vulnerable to it because a carbureted gas tank isn't sealed at all and the humidity of the air just freely flows in through the vent, whereas a fuel injected tank is practically sealed. Your carbureted small engines will pretty much melt away within a season, even faster if you try E85 or E20.
 

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Does Octane have anything to do with MPG then?
It seems like the ethanol lowers mine.....or is that apples to oranges?
The entire concept of Regular, Plus, and Premium is a marketing gimmick.

Octane is a measure of how long the molecules of gas are. The longer the gas (bigger number octane) molecule is the harder it is to spontaneously ignite.

The various types of octane available are there for higher compression engines. The higher octanes prevent pre detonation, aka knock. They take more energy to spontaneously combust. They are used in higher compression engines, thus reducing the chance to ignite before the engine is ready for combustion. If combustion happens before the piston is at the top, or on it's way down, the combustion is for all intents trying to push the engine backwards, this is the condition known as pre-detonation, aka knock. This is bad.

So, a less spontaneously combustible octane is needed to prevent this, thus a longer octane.
 

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Anyone remember the Sunoco Custom Blending Pumps? You could (supposedly) dial your own octane rating, from sub-regular to super-premium. Some of the hot rodders in my high school claimed that they could only run their 12.5:1 compression V8s on "Sunoco 260."

There were some incredible aviation gasolines also, used in the monster air-cooled radials flying at the twilight of the recips, just before the jet age. The "purple" avgas octane rating was 115 with the mixture set to auto-lean and 145 in auto-rich. LOTS of tetraethyl lead in that stuff.
 

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The entire concept of Regular, Plus, and Premium is a marketing gimmick.

Octane is a measure of how long the molecules of gas are. The longer the gas (bigger number octane) molecule is the harder it is to spontaneously ignite.

The various types of octane available are there for higher compression engines. The higher octanes prevent pre detonation, aka knock. They take more energy to spontaneously combust.
You are right that the names are marketing hype{especially the name "premium"} but the 3 levels are not. Certain engines need certain octane rates. It isn't just high compression engines either, super/turbo charged engines also need higher octane rates. Most engines only need the lowest rate and most high performance engines need the top with a few engines in the middle. Also an engine that develops carbon deposits in the combustion chamber may need to move up to a higher rate{although with modern detergents in fuel this isn't as much of a problem any more}.


Not sure you got that quite right - longer molecules? There are different isomers of octane some of which would be longer than others but that is not how they rate octane. I know for a fact that octane rate is tested in a special engine{see pic below} against the set standard of isooctane/trimethylpentane which is a perfect 100 on the scale. A given gasoline mixture then tests lower or higher in detonation{self-igniting} and rated on the scale. Many different chemicals are mixed to make up what come out of the pump.

 

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The reason diesel and Jet A are more expensive is that they are processed from the same gravity of crude and there is a heck of a demand for both. Only so much of either can be made so the demand for both rises and so does the price.

Greg
I recall that diesel also has higher taxes per gallon.
 

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You are right that the names are marketing hype{especially the name "premium"} but the 3 levels are not. Certain engines need certain octane rates. It isn't just high compression engines either, super/turbo charged engines also need higher octane rates. Most engines only need the lowest rate and most high performance engines need the top with a few engines in the middle. Also an engine that develops carbon deposits in the combustion chamber may need to move up to a higher rate{although with modern detergents in fuel this isn't as much of a problem any more}.


Not sure you got that quite right - longer molecules? There are different isomers of octane some of which would be longer than others but that is not how they rate octane. I know for a fact that octane rate is tested in a special engine{see pic below} against the set standard of isooctane/trimethylpentane which is a perfect 100 on the scale. A given gasoline mixture then tests lower or higher in detonation{self-igniting} and rated on the scale. Many different chemicals are mixed to make up what come out of the pump.

Many small (50cc) scooters actually require premium...the air-cooled engines run hot & ping easily. In warm weather, 89-octane was worth 1-1.5MPG on my Magnum over 87. (It pulled back timing on regular & thus ran less efficiently.)
 
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