The new 2014 Honda Forza 300 scooter is soon to hit the US shores.
http://powersports.honda.com/2014/forza.aspx
http://powersports.honda.com/2014/forza.aspx
New 2014 Honda Forza 300 Scooter
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I like the looks of this bike. Might be the perfect balance for city/hwy use. Not a long distance tourer but a good city/weekend trip bike. I don't like the looks of the short windscreen....hope the after-market picks up on this bike.
If this bike turns out to be a dud, then a Burg 400 is the next in line for me.
If this bike turns out to be a dud, then a Burg 400 is the next in line for me.
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I note the bike uses an 'offset cylinder/crank' design too. Very innovative. Very efficient.
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I don't see where this is mentioned on the Honda site. What is it and why is it good?
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In a net shell, heres my take on crankshaft design on parallel twins. In most parallel twins there are two types of firing orders, type 1 and type 2. In type 1, both pistons are up at the same time and then fire together, like a big single cylinder, one fire every 720 degrees of rotation.... In a type 2, both pistons are up at the same time but the camshaft and ignition are 180 degrees apart so it fires twice in that same 720 degrees, kind of, sort of.....
There are some parallel twins that the pistons are split, one up and one down but this takes more dynamic balancing of the parts. Ether counter weights, balance shafts or both are required. These engines have that Harley V-twin sound, "Thud..Thud....................Thud..Thud..........."
In a "OFF SET" crankshaft you can phase the connecting rods pins off a bit +/- so the engine is firing a bit closer together or farther apart to "TUNE" the power band where you need it. But now you must design in extra counterweights to balance it out and add more balance shafts too.
There is the dynamic balancing of the rotating mass and then firing order balancing too. Mostly they play with firing order balancing on production engines. Single cylinders are very un-balanced. Then the V-twins are about as bad, parallel twins are getting better balanced and so on....
Everything is normally timed off cylinder 1. That is why a 12 cylinder "Boxer" engine is so SMOOOOOOOTH, many pistons are off set from each other.....
There are some parallel twins that the pistons are split, one up and one down but this takes more dynamic balancing of the parts. Ether counter weights, balance shafts or both are required. These engines have that Harley V-twin sound, "Thud..Thud....................Thud..Thud..........."
In a "OFF SET" crankshaft you can phase the connecting rods pins off a bit +/- so the engine is firing a bit closer together or farther apart to "TUNE" the power band where you need it. But now you must design in extra counterweights to balance it out and add more balance shafts too.
There is the dynamic balancing of the rotating mass and then firing order balancing too. Mostly they play with firing order balancing on production engines. Single cylinders are very un-balanced. Then the V-twins are about as bad, parallel twins are getting better balanced and so on....
Everything is normally timed off cylinder 1. That is why a 12 cylinder "Boxer" engine is so SMOOOOOOOTH, many pistons are off set from each other.....
Sorry but what has this to do with the Forza?
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Sorry but what has this to do with the Forza?
What I did not know is it, the 279cc Forza is a single cylinder. Not sure why the comment on off set cylinder/crank means. You can not offset a single cylinder from something not there. It takes 2 or more cylinders to offset one or more cylinders.
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Blackcat, there has been considerable information released by Honda about it's design. The previous Forza used an offset cylinder design too. You can do a search and I'm sure it will show up.
The Honda Forza uses offset cylinder design to improve engine wear, torque, fuel economy and various other engine characteristics. Many other engines are now beginning to use this design too. Cars and bikes. I've just finished an engine project which also used this type of design. As mentioned above it has many advantages. Here is a diagram showing the principle of the design.
View attachment 14625
This type of design, as some of you will know, is not new and was used in the previous Forza. But in the past it has been used mainly in more specialist engines, mostly. The advantages were always there but were not considered enough to warranty it's use enmass. But now that's changing quickly. Now with engine technology and the use of better materials, the need to reduce friction inside the engines, get better engine life, better power and emissions/fuel mileage etc etc, it's starting to be incorporated in quite a few engines and we will be seeing more and more engine using this design. Kawasaki use it in some engines and many car manufacturers here is 'Urop' are using it. Honda obviously are using it. The engine design I was commissioned to work on uses it and as a result produces around 6% more power with that feature alone and around 5% better fuel economy.
You can see why. The main power stroke occurs at the point of best efficiency, where pumping forces are reduced and maximum use of the torque is made. This produces less engine wear, more power, more mpgs. In a normal engine, most engine wear in the cylinder occurs on the power stroke, ovaling the piston and bore, leading to less efficiency over time. Also wasting power and fuel. The reciprocating mass after the power stroke, although traveling out of line in the 'offset cylinder design' a bit farther than otherwise would be the case, wears the cylinder and crank less than normal. Vibration is not a problem either as was often muted in the past.
So it's all good! The Forza is a great engine. Honda have tuned it for good intermediate torque with lower overall top end power. It should go well though.
Dave, you have good information but you are talking about the differing crankshaft configurations applicable to various engine types. Not offset cylinder to crank design. Yeah...it's confusing isn't it!
The Honda Forza uses offset cylinder design to improve engine wear, torque, fuel economy and various other engine characteristics. Many other engines are now beginning to use this design too. Cars and bikes. I've just finished an engine project which also used this type of design. As mentioned above it has many advantages. Here is a diagram showing the principle of the design.
View attachment 14625
This type of design, as some of you will know, is not new and was used in the previous Forza. But in the past it has been used mainly in more specialist engines, mostly. The advantages were always there but were not considered enough to warranty it's use enmass. But now that's changing quickly. Now with engine technology and the use of better materials, the need to reduce friction inside the engines, get better engine life, better power and emissions/fuel mileage etc etc, it's starting to be incorporated in quite a few engines and we will be seeing more and more engine using this design. Kawasaki use it in some engines and many car manufacturers here is 'Urop' are using it. Honda obviously are using it. The engine design I was commissioned to work on uses it and as a result produces around 6% more power with that feature alone and around 5% better fuel economy.
You can see why. The main power stroke occurs at the point of best efficiency, where pumping forces are reduced and maximum use of the torque is made. This produces less engine wear, more power, more mpgs. In a normal engine, most engine wear in the cylinder occurs on the power stroke, ovaling the piston and bore, leading to less efficiency over time. Also wasting power and fuel. The reciprocating mass after the power stroke, although traveling out of line in the 'offset cylinder design' a bit farther than otherwise would be the case, wears the cylinder and crank less than normal. Vibration is not a problem either as was often muted in the past.
So it's all good! The Forza is a great engine. Honda have tuned it for good intermediate torque with lower overall top end power. It should go well though.
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Quantum Mechanic is right.
"Offset Cylinder" is the name of the design where the cylinder is offset from the centreline of the crank. The offfset is cylinder to crank, not cylinder to cylinder so it is perfectly possible for a single clinder (in fact more common).
It makes the secondary forces work for you instead of against you
"Offset Cylinder" is the name of the design where the cylinder is offset from the centreline of the crank. The offfset is cylinder to crank, not cylinder to cylinder so it is perfectly possible for a single clinder (in fact more common).
It makes the secondary forces work for you instead of against you
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Over 400 lbs, only around 25 hp, and not much better mpg than a B400. Plus, not as good underseat storage. Despite having a higher price, the B400 should stay competitive and if Suzuki boosts its mpg, I might find myself back on one in the future.
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Intrunner40, Just got back from a non stop cross country run of 119 miles. Due to the roads I was travelling on my speed was always in the region of 45 to 55mph. My 2012 400z abs returned a genuine 86mpg! (Uk gallon). Wow! How much cheaper can it get with all that power too! Get one quick...is my advice.
Very interesting stuff here fellows. I consistently get over 70 mpg on my 08 400. 72 mpg on my last tank, but my girlfriend on her 01 Reflex got 79 mpg on her last tank. We always ride together so our scoots are doing the same thing. The only difference I can see is she is 40 pounds lighter than me. We ride the flat lands of North Florida and she might have a new Forza in her future.
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Thanks QM for setting that straight. I understood it as soon as I seen that diagram. Makes sense.
We kind of did it with the pistons in a Dodge 318 Ci (5.2L) V8 without moving the cylinders. The piston in all pre 2010 Chrysler small V8's had an offset piston pin so the piston had to c0ck sideways on the power stroke. It was done to make the engine quiet by making the pistons skirt tight on the cylinder wall, piston slap. BIG time frictional drag. But installing that same piston 180 degrees on the connecting rod, you picked up about 8 to 10 Lb/Tq in the lower RPM range. The net effect was putting the piston more directly over the rod and crankshaft pin on the power stroke.
On the exhaust stroke the piston may c0ck a bit sideways in the Forza engine but with no load it should be minimal drag.
Hey, I am not an engineer and have never played one on TV. Just a long time dreamer and shadetree engineer.
I understood it as soon as I seen that diagram. Makes sense. We kind of did it with the pistons in a Dodge 318 Ci (5.2L) V8 without moving the cylinders. The piston in all pre 2010 Chrysler small V8's had an offset piston pin so the piston had to c0ck sideways on the power stroke. It was done to make the engine quiet by making the pistons skirt tight on the cylinder wall, piston slap. BIG time frictional drag. But installing that same piston 180 degrees on the connecting rod, you picked up about 8 to 10 Lb/Tq in the lower RPM range. The net effect was putting the piston more directly over the rod and crankshaft pin on the power stroke.
On the exhaust stroke the piston may c0ck a bit sideways in the Forza engine but with no load it should be minimal drag.
Hey, I am not an engineer and have never played one on TV.
Just a long time dreamer and shadetree engineer.
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this bike was primarily released in Asia, as such comes with no wind protection, you can actually order a higher windscreen but makes little difference, this makes this bike not very usable in cold weather rainy places. it comes with a 62 liters storage though.
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158 Posts
The US spec Forza has a V-Matic transmission.
The 2007 spec from http://world.honda.com/news/2007/2071204FORZA-Z-FORZA-Z-ABS-Scooters/ has an S-Matic transmission.
"Evolved Automatic Transmission
In addition to the seven-speed manual mode, the Honda S-Matic automatic transmission installed in the FORZA Z and FORZA Z ABS now features a load sensing control system, a first for motorcycles. In automatic mode, the mechanism automatically determines the load from the vehicle speed, engine rpm and throttle opening, and automatically selects the gear that provides the optimal driving force for conditions such as uphill roads or tandem riding. This new system realizes a powerful riding feel even on hilly, winding roads."
Seems the US is getting a simplified version, or all 2113 (newer) versions are no longer S-Matic?
The 2007 spec from http://world.honda.com/news/2007/2071204FORZA-Z-FORZA-Z-ABS-Scooters/ has an S-Matic transmission.
"Evolved Automatic Transmission
In addition to the seven-speed manual mode, the Honda S-Matic automatic transmission installed in the FORZA Z and FORZA Z ABS now features a load sensing control system, a first for motorcycles. In automatic mode, the mechanism automatically determines the load from the vehicle speed, engine rpm and throttle opening, and automatically selects the gear that provides the optimal driving force for conditions such as uphill roads or tandem riding. This new system realizes a powerful riding feel even on hilly, winding roads."
Seems the US is getting a simplified version, or all 2113 (newer) versions are no longer S-Matic?
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158 Posts
When is the 200 due?
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No specific date mentioned, but . . .
from http://blog.motorcycle.com/2013/06/...i/2014-suzuki-burgman-200-gets-carb-approval/
"The California Air Resources Board has issued an executive order for the 2014 Suzuki Burgman 200, opening the way for the scooter to be introduced to the market.
For several years now, Suzuki has offered two main scooter models for the American market, the Burgman 400 and the Burgman 650, with some offshoots such as the Suzuki Burgman 650 Executive. The new CARB executive order suggests Suzuki is ready to introduce a new, smaller model to the family."
from http://blog.motorcycle.com/2013/06/...i/2014-suzuki-burgman-200-gets-carb-approval/
"The California Air Resources Board has issued an executive order for the 2014 Suzuki Burgman 200, opening the way for the scooter to be introduced to the market.
For several years now, Suzuki has offered two main scooter models for the American market, the Burgman 400 and the Burgman 650, with some offshoots such as the Suzuki Burgman 650 Executive. The new CARB executive order suggests Suzuki is ready to introduce a new, smaller model to the family."
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I just saw the Forza in the flesh at a dealer on Long Island NY.
First impressions:
Bike is slick, streamlined, and beautifully put together. It is relatively light and easy to straighten off the side stand. My measure of the lightness is measured against the Burg 650 and 400. The Forza is more compact and much less intimidating than either Burgman. I'm 5' 11" with a 32" inseam and their was plenty of knee room and with my feet in a forward position, my legs were bent but comfortable. The most comfortable postion for me in the showroom was with my heels on the flat portion of the foot rest and my toes canted up resting on the angled portion of the footrest. The screen is small, but a larger one and a top box are listed as accessories on the dealer's computer. The seat is heavily sculpted with a built in backrest which allows limited front to back movement of ones rear end. The whole bike is black and red. Most of the black is an eye pleasing matte black except for the handlebars, mounting hardware, and plastic surrounding the bars which looks tacky. The scoot is so slick and smooth, it might be too much for some. As you can see I am nit-picking here. I think that this bike fills a niche for the smallest scoot useful for mixed urban/highway use.
Oh....Forgot to mention that the brake levers are not adjustable.
First impressions:
Bike is slick, streamlined, and beautifully put together. It is relatively light and easy to straighten off the side stand. My measure of the lightness is measured against the Burg 650 and 400. The Forza is more compact and much less intimidating than either Burgman. I'm 5' 11" with a 32" inseam and their was plenty of knee room and with my feet in a forward position, my legs were bent but comfortable. The most comfortable postion for me in the showroom was with my heels on the flat portion of the foot rest and my toes canted up resting on the angled portion of the footrest. The screen is small, but a larger one and a top box are listed as accessories on the dealer's computer. The seat is heavily sculpted with a built in backrest which allows limited front to back movement of ones rear end. The whole bike is black and red. Most of the black is an eye pleasing matte black except for the handlebars, mounting hardware, and plastic surrounding the bars which looks tacky. The scoot is so slick and smooth, it might be too much for some. As you can see I am nit-picking here. I think that this bike fills a niche for the smallest scoot useful for mixed urban/highway use.
Oh....Forgot to mention that the brake levers are not adjustable.
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