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Discussion Starter #1
Sad to say, I did not get too far. :mad:

I had made a tool (actually made it as a pattern from wood scraps I had - I planned to take pattern to a friend to weld up something).

Then decided I might as well give it a try for removing the shaft nut. THE TOOL BROKE. :(

I may borrow an Impact Wrench to get the nut OFF, but will have to come up with something to get the nut ON (Torque back).

Taking pictures as I go along for information (maybe help someone). I realize there are U-Tube Videos, thanks to Burgman Man :), and a number of tool ideas posted on this site, so not sure my inputs help much.

Maybe get it all in one place and show how an amateur mechanic messes things up. :rolleyes: Wish me success.

Sorry - lost the pictures and now the site design will not let me place them here. So add a reply. GRRR.
 

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First Picture shows what I did to restore the wire harness holders. The first time I took the CVT off I had cut them as I broke one getting it out of the case. So, I put in a red plug for that broke and I am using spot tie lacing to hold the wire harness in place on the others (works - as can untie the ties and reuse the tie because I tie it loosely to just hold the harness in place when reinstalling the outer cover).

Second & Third Pictures show the case off and shows the Painter's Tape I have been using as a gasket since the first time I took the case off at about 6000 miles - now have 22,700 miles. I damaged the original gasket getting the case cover off. l have had the cover off and on 3 times at least. Painter's Tape works as far as I am concerend - I just redo any damaged areas wehn I put it back on. (No liquid in there - do not need water tight seal, it keeps the metal apart and dust out - there are ventialtion ducts in/out, cheaper and easier to work with that the normal gasket. I tape Painter's Tape along all edges the first time (overlap where bends occur) and tehn use a razor knife (can't think of the name of those littel craftsmen knives) to cut the edgres and holes. BTW, not taking credit for an Orignal Idea, someone else on this site did it first.

FOURTH Picture shows the old belt condition. It still looks good to me, but I am going to replace it as I am nervous about it breaking at 22,700 miles when recommended replacemet is 14,500 miles. Plus I have RPM to Spped of 100 tiems speeed plus 700. That may be as much due to the Rollers -- changing them to Sliders and clean the slide area up. (IF I CAN GET THE THING APART). :rolleyes:

FIFTH Picture shows the amount of play in the old belt. I have no idea how much there is in a new belt (will try to check that if I ever get a new one on the CVT). ;)

SIXTH & SEVENTH Picture show the clutch shoes (still look plenty thick to me). I get shudder in varying degree on acceleration, less when I accelerate rapidly as folks recommend. It seems worse early on the ride and gets better. It bothers me worse when puttsing along like in a parking lot or something like that at slow speeds. I do not worry about it. Been that way for 22,700 miles.

EIGHTH & NINTH shows my "WOOD TOOL" and props I was using to hold the handle of the tool so I could reverse the torque on the NUT. I used the 2x4 propped up and had a knee on it to keep the "Tool" handle in place. I was able to put considerable force on the nut before the "TOOL" broke. You can see where it broke.

TO BE TRUTHFUL -- I was worried about only having two nuts in contact with the flanges on the pulley (the fan fins) after hearing folks on here say, sometimes the fins break off.
 

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I would buy a new gasket, because it is rigid (not compressible). Glue it to the CVT cover with appropriate gasket cement. I think I used Permatex, the one that dries hard.

I made a Variator holding tool. Will provide the photos I took (in another thread). Plywood works well. Six bolts provide six surfaces against the vanes.

You can't tell if a belt is worn by its play. The belts wear across their width. I don't know offhand what the min. width is.

Get some fine emery paper and lightly sand the clutch bell and shoes, then clean them.

Once you get the hang of it, it's not a hard job. Also my $49 Harbor Freight impact tool works wonders (120 volts) for removing those 24mm nuts.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Better results this time. I made a new "Tool" to hold the fan fins on the drive pulley (Variator End). Using what I had on hand (a scrap piece of plywood and some bolts and nuts). One would have to do some redesign on the 'handle' end in order to put it on the other side where the ground would hold it while taking the shaft nut off. I managed with a rig using a 2x4 that the tool could push against. I put my knees on the 2x4 to hold it while I took the nut off. Anyway, it worked and I did not break any of the fan fins (yet - see what happens when I torque it back to 75 FT LBS).

Beats me - I was adding pictures and got to the end of what they allow - it all disappeared and would not let me add. I think I may have treid to add one more after the maximum.

Anyway, see next two replies for all the pictures and what they are.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
The pictures - first seven.

FIRST PICTURE shows the tool. I just put the dimension on for reference, not sure I would use that length if doing it again (it was just a guess to start with).

SECOND PICTURE shows the setup I used to take the nut off - note the tool pushed against the 2x4. The center kickstand on the Scooter gets in the way if you turn the tool to that side - one could make a modification and use it on that side). It should work good on the side shown when putting the nut back on and torque it. Only other thing to note is - I used a string to hold the tool up against the fan fins in order to free my hands.

THIRD PICTURE shows the belt still on with the fixed side (fan fin side of the drive pulley removed).

FOURTH and FIFTH PICTURES show the old and new belt side by side. I measured the width of both belts for comparison. I took 4 measurements spaced about 1/4 way around the belt and averaged the readings, measured at widest point (on the hump) and at most narrow point (in the valley) of the toothed area.
Old widest AVE was 25.60MM and New widest was 26.62MM --- Old narrowest AVE was 25.60MM and New narrowest was 26.08MM. That is after 22,700 Miles. Hard for me to believe that accounts for the change in RPM for say 60MPH (use to be about 6000 and lately is 6700).

SIXTH and SEVENTH PICTURES shows the face of the Fixed Pulley (Fan Fin Pulley Side) and the face of Moveable Pulley (Variator Side). The Variator side of the pulley assembly is the one that has the Roller Weights (next pictures). The lines around the pulley faces form a waving feeling surface (I am guessing wear groves from where the belt sits most of the time).
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The rest of the pictures.


EIGTH PICTURE shows the back side of the Variator pulley as it is assembled.

NINTH PICTURE shows the Variator with the retaining ring and fixed plate (Brass looking plate) removed.
The Roller Weights are still installed. One dusty mess (belt wear material) and I AM GUESSING that keeps the Roller Weights from moving out and squeezing the belt up in the pulley - thus lower gear and more RPM for same speed).

TENTH, ELEVENTH, and TWELFTH PICTURES show more about the dust.

THIRTEENTH PICTURE shows the fixed plate (this plate is what the Roller Weights are restrained by as they move out and force the moveable pulley plate to squeeze the belt to a larger diameter (higher gear and more speed for same RPM). The little insert "Thingys" are replaceable. Replace if they allow rotational motion when the assembly is together. I think mine are OK - they only cost about $17 and maybe should have bought them when I bought the new DR PULLEY Sliders to replace the Roller Weights.

FOURTEENTH PICTURE shows things pretty well cleaned up, maybe need a different brush and some alcohol to get into the tighter places. However, I think the weigh slide areas will be clean enough.

FIFTEENTH PICTURE shows some of the weights with the worst wear (not round). I am sure not rolling out as they should, (so lower gearing and more RPM for same speed). sides wore flat looks like they have been doing some sliding instead of rolling).
 

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Mike1nw -- Thanks for the inputs. I did get'er done (removed and partially cleaned up that is) before comig back here to psot the PHOTOS showing what i did.

I had looked up several homemade tools before I went back to work on it. I saw yours before you made the replies here and another more like mine. Sort of what gave me the idea. A lot simpler than mesing with steel and welds, etc.

I am not going to mess with the clutch until the shoes wear down. I am satisfied with the clutch operation.

As far as the gasket, I am satisfied with the Painters Tape and see no problems with using it.

Thanks again.
 

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Great post. About what does the shop charge to do this belt/roller replacement?
Don't know as did not price it.

Guess is: Belts retail at about $200, Rollers (OEM) retail at about $90, figure two maybe three hours labor ($200 or $300) = $500 to $600 plus tax.

OEM Belts available for around $150 to $155 on internet. DR Pulley Sliders were $58. Say $210 to $225 (DIY if you don't screw up). I ain't out of the woods yet.
 

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QUESTIONS - my 2 concerns now that I am this far into the change are: (I submitted this to mike via PM, but ask here also.)

1) Cleaning Variator is where I am now. So far just used a Tooth Brush I had.

Wondering about using alcohol or some other cleaner? (maybe rinse with water) Plus a smaller brush to get into some crevices.

But, figure overdo is a waste as it will soon be a mess again. Maybe just concentrate on the slider slots.

You seem knowledgeable and said you were a clean Freak. Figured I would ask what you do.

2) I understand torque is 75 ft lbs?

Reading on here there is concern on my part about getting it RIGHT. Meaning - some talk of having the BELT up (out to edge) when torquing the nut. Maybe they mean just don't have it all the way down. But, one guy used a tapered hammer handle to spread the secondary pulley and force that belt down while doing the torquing on the primary nut.

What do you do??

Since you say you are frequently cleaning the Variator, I assume you are taking the nut off frequently.
 

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I clean the variator parts with Simple Green and water. Sometimes with spray brake cleaner. When it's all dry, I put a little spray lube on the surfaces.

First time I did this procedure, I stood on the clutch assembly so the belt would fall into the pulley. Then it was easier to install the variator.

Now I just put it together, and hand-turn the variator so the belt doesn't get "pinched" when I put the nut on.

Either way, hold the halves of the variator together while you put back on the crankshaft, else a roller will fall out and get stuck. That's a bummer :eek:
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I clean the variator parts with Simple Green and water. Sometimes with spray brake cleaner. When it's all dry, I put a little spray lube on the surfaces.

First time I did this procedure, I stood on the clutch assembly so the belt would fall into the pulley. Then it was easier to install the variator.

Now I just put it together, and hand-turn the variator so the belt doesn't get "pinched" when I put the nut on.

Either way, hold the halves of the variator together while you put back on the crankshaft, else a roller will fall out and get stuck. That's a bummer :eek:
Thanks -- I had read of those probelms in other posts. I tried to hold the Variator together while puttiong it on the shaft (hard to do, hope I did). I think i did all right on keeping the belt away from the Torque the Nut effort.

I just uesd alcohol as final cleaning (brush and rag).
Thanks for your inputs

Final report and pictures in next Reply. :)
 

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I have the CVT back together and Nut Torqued down :). I started it in the driveway with out the case, just to see if all is OK. Only worry now is if I got the Variator Assembly installed without letting a Slider flip over and if I got the Nut Torqued properly. I THINK I DID as I was as careful as I could be. There have been reported issues regarding both these things.

Anyway, this after noon after going to the gym (rode NINJA on a short ride there and after), I did some final cleanup of the Variator in an attempt to get all the dust out, especially in the slots where the Sliders are located. Used alcohol, tooth brush, and paper towels. Also, a lot of dust in the case and clutch still on the scooter (another dust pile). That Belt Dust is very fine, when you brush or wipe it, it goes into the air like smoke. I wore a mask.

I am showing pictures of the OEM Rollers beside the DR Pulley Sliders (19GM 23x16 size). Then picture of Sliders installed in the Variator with out the fixed plate (they call that the Ramp Plate). Anyway, it is the plate that the Sliders (Or Rollers) push against to make the inside pulley of the Variator move closer to the outside fixed pulley plate. One picture shows a shaft (sleeve) coming out of the Variator pulley assemble (that is what the moveable pulley slides on.

When assembled on the engine shaft, the fixed pulley comes up against that shaft (sleeve). The Ramp Plate and the Fixed Pulley are fixed to the engine shaft via Spline Gears. Of course the Moveable Pulley is part of the Ramp Plate, so it is essentially also tied to the Engine Shaft.

FIRST & SECOND PICTURES show a comparison of a DR Pulley Sliders and a OEM Roller. You should be able to see an artist sketch of a slider installed (Ramp Plate or Fixed Plate is the upper plate and lower plate would be the moveable pulley). As RPM increases, centrifugal force makes the Slider move out from the center and squeezes the moveable pate of the pulley inward to narrow the gap between it and the fixed pulley. So, the belt moves up to a greater diameter (Higher Gearing). Supposedly, the Sliders make the plate move quicker and squeeze it harder. You still have the same take off low gearing as with the rollers, but the reaction is quicker after take off. We shall see.

THIRD PICTURE shows the Sliders installed in the Moveable Pulley near the center of the back of the plate. I am holding the Fixed Plate (Ramp Plate) that the Sliders will push against as they move out from center. You can see the marks on the Ramp Plate from where the old Rollers slide up and back. (8 of them if you count). Note splines on the Fixed Plate (Ramp Plate). That is all that drives the Variator Portion of the Primary Pulley system. The fixed plate has splines also. I did file down the edges (take sharp edge off) of the Fixed Plate (as someone on the FORUM said the rough edges damage the SLIDERS.

FOURTH & FIFTH PICTURES show the final Variator Assembly after putting it together. The shaft (sleeve) in the second picture goes over the engine shaft and the Moveable pulley slides back and forth on it. It is not attached to the engine shaft.

SIXTH PICTURE shows the dust pile from the Belt Dust that had accumulated in the case and the clutch area. That stuff is a mess - brushing or wiping it sends a lot of it into the air (like rising smoke).

SEVENTH PICTURE shows the Variator Assembly (Moveable Pulley) back on the engine shaft. I can only hope I held the assemble together (the moveable plate against the Sliders and the Ramp Plate) while putting it on the shaft. It is hard as there is not room for your fingers as you reach the end of the shaft. There is a possibility the Sliders may flip over if the items are not held together.

EIGHTH PICTURE shows the rear Pulley and Clutch from front. The spring keeps the rear pulley plates together until the belt moves into the center (higher gearing) and forces the plates apart (higher gearing a function of RPM and Speeed). The Clutch (you can see the Bell Housing outside part of the clutch) has 5 shoes (older models had 3 shoes) that look like small shoes on a drum brake on a car. These shoes move out by centrifugal force to engage the Bell Housing at higher RPM (then the wheel turns), other wise the at idle the pulleys are turning and the wheel is not. :)
 

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NINTH PICTURE shows the belt (direction arrows). Fortunately, Eric mentioned he thought the belts were directional and I finally found the arrows in all the other symbols. Otherwise, I may have not noticed and installed backwards.

TENTH & ELEVENTH PICTURES show Belt installed and the Fixed plate of the primary pulley installed (not torqued yet).

TWELFTH and REST of the PICTURES show sequence of Torquing the Shaft Nut (75 Ft Lbs) and trying to keep the belt out of the way between the two front pulleys. Working the belt into the secondary pulley while torquing the nut on primary shaft. The belt was originally up above the Pulley Edges.
ALL Seems OK, I started the engine (CVT CASE off) in driveway and revved THE ENGINE UP. Last Picture is after the test with case off in driveway.

All that is left is to change Rear Drive Oil (WHILE THE CASE IS OFF), put Case and Plastic on - TEST RIDE and Hope all is OK. There can be issues as noted in the first paragraph.

INFO: What can happen in the torquing? The belt can be low and between the plates and prevent proper torque. You could be torquing against the belt instead of against the Shaft (sleeve) that is a part of the Variator Assembly. Note: That Shaft (sleeve) was shown in previous pictures. Result would be nut gets loose and vibrates off and everything comes apart (new pulleys, case, who knows what else - it has happened).

SO, WHAT I DID was forced the belt down in the secondary pulley by prying on it and tapping it with a piece of narrow wood and a hammer. This gave more belt length on the other end to get away from the center of the Primary Pulleys for torquing the nut. You just keep working with it and you can see in between the Primary Pulley Plates to make sure all is OK ( I HOPE). Other than that I used the same "Tool" (Board with bolts and nuts that I used in removal of the nut) to hold the fan fins (Engine Shaft) while I torque the nut.
 

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I posted this in another topic - but thought applicable to this topic, so posting here also fro your information.

I am not a Mech Engr, I am just an Elec Engr (my career - retired now for 19 years). Just to,let you know I am not Mech Qualified. :-( I have some basic knowledge of issues with Torqued Nuts (thread stress, cleanliness, etc. and that is it.

I have been in E Mail Conversation with a MC Buddy that is a retired Mech Engr (Was involved with big cranes mostly). We discussed the Torque Issues on the Shaft Nut for the Variator End of the CVT Pulley on Burgman 400, and the fact there have been issues of the nut coming lose.,

I don't understand the tech of all this (links he sent are Technical and complicated). However, it becomes critical to do it right (guess we luck out by doing it half right). :confused:

By The Way, the washer on my Burgman 400 (2011) appeared pretty much like a flat washer to me (I guess I expected to see more of a curve or bend giving a spring load effect). Anyway, I made sure it went back on with the side of he washer oriented as they were when I took it off. (Paint was OUT BOARD). Plus, I tightened the Nut snug with regular wrench and then worked my way up from 50FTLB to 75FTLB (partly to check or get a feel for the Torque Wrench - a Harbor Freight that I have not calibrated and to test my Fin Fan Hold Tool)

Including pictures of my "TOOL". Crude, but worked. Would use stiffer board and design so could switch to other side for Nut Removal (as it is - interfered with the center kickstand if on the other side). I made it work here by using the 2x4 and kneeling on the 2x4 when removing the nut. It worked in the position with out the board for tightening the nut (as tighten CW).

OK - Here is what friend sent.


If shaft nut backing off is an issue at 75 ft-lb tightening torque, I doubt if Plumbers Goop would help.

I agree that on ANYTHING on the threads would throw off the proper tensioning of the nut/shaft. The goal is to deflect (tension) the shaft by the action of the nut. Torque is not the best way to assure the proper amount of stretch is achieved. On cranes, for critical fasteners, we would use turn-of-the-nut method over torque wrenches. Tests by the AISC has shown proper turn-of-the-nut method is more accurate than using torque wrenches, particularly wrenches that have not been routinely certified. I'm a little surprised that if the nut connection is critical that it is not being used. Torque is directly proportional to the coefficient of friction between the nut and the thread of the bolt (or the shaft, in your situation). Torque charts are based on certain conditions, most commonly being that the threads of the fasteners are clean and only have the lubrication from the manufacturing process. Some charts are based on other factors like use of anti-colloidal suspension products, like Never-Seize.

See: http://www.appliedbolting.com/turn-of-nut-bolting-method.html

For structural connections, Alcoa structural engineers use load-indicating washers. That method is even more accurate.

See: http://www.portlandbolt.com/products/washers/load_indicating_washer.html
 

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Paul...y'all did good...:cheers:
 

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Now i think it became possible to make all the tools and repair 400 cvt even in field conditions.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Field repair -- ;) Good Post. Thanks

I am attempting to redo a post reply I deleted due to errors on pictures. Hopefully, the site will let me do the replu post again. :confused:

Just a couple more pictures I took this after noon , Saturday, before I put the case on and reinstalled everything. Test Ride SUN Morn (could have today as it stopped raining, but roads wet and I wanted to watch MO vs AL for SEC Championship. MO likely not a chance (score now is 28 to 13 AL winning). pull for MO (my home state and went to U of MO at Rolla (Engr School) - not on U of MO campus - but, I would like to see AL loose.

One other thing I did -- was added Plumbers goop (adhesive sealant) to the end of the threads on the shaft behind the nut. Just a dumb idea perhaps, maybe keep shaft Nut from coming all the way off if it should get loose. Hopefully, I would notice a RPM change before the nut came all the way off.

It seems to me there should be at least a retaining pin of some sort behind the nut to hold it on the shaft if it came loose. :confused:

FIRST PICTURE shows the primary (Drive) pulley from the back looking into the center. It appears to me that I had the belt in good place during Nut Torquing as the left pulley is up against the shaft out of the right pulley.

SECOND & THIRD PICTURE shows belt slack or NEW belt (2nd picture) as compared to belt slack for OLD belt (3rd picture). I don't know that it matters, but less play on the New Belt.

FOURT PICTURE is ALL DONE.
 

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Test Ride Pictures in another Topic Post.
http://burgmanusa.com/forums/52-burgman-400-2007-model/97169-test-ride-new-cvt-belt-sliders-recent-install-post.html


Test Ride a success (I think - only 105 miles) with 63 MPG on a 90 mile fill up using all kind of speeds and roads. RPM vs MPH is looking good, especially at cruising speeds of 50 to 80 MPH indicated (take 7% off indicated)

I think I have lower gearing at speeds below about 40 MPH based on RPM being higher than with OEM setup.
I say think because I did not really pay to much attention to RPM at low speeds with OEM Setup. It just seems that the RPM is higher now for low speeds (below about 40MPH).

I know I have higher gearing at speeds over about 40 MPH and for sure at 50 MPH up to 80 MPH (top speed I hit today) than with OEM setup.
I know because for the last months I have paid attention to RPM at speeds in 50 to 70 MPH range and they were a lot higher (700 RPM or more higher) than they are now. That said, when I originally bought the Scooter (51 miles on it), the RPM was lower at speed than it has been lately. But, not as low as it is with the new belt and Sliders replacing the Rollers.

I think the new belt and Sliders have improved operations. :)

I contribute the higher RPM the past few months to the Worn Belt (22,700 miles vs recommended 14,500 miles) and Roller Operation. However, I think mostly due to the belt dust interfering with the Roller Weight Operation and the Roller Weights being wore flat on edges. Just a guess on my part. ???

I took pictures of the Dash (MPH and RPM) on various roads at various speeds and divided the pictures into LOW Speed (Less than 40MPH) and HIGH Speeds (More than 40MPH). I use 40 MPH as the break point because that is where RPM begins to equal MPH x 100 +/- some depending on road and acceleration. At higher speeds of 50 MPH to 80 MPH the RPM is generally less than MPH x 100 by up 1000 rpm. It is of course dependant on the road (flat, some grade, or curves where you are slowing and then accelerating out of the curve - in other words if you are using more power the RPM will be closer to the MPH x 100 but seldom over that.
 
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