[BLTN57]

Had some shifting issues end of last season with my 03 650. (Bike would not shift out of 1st gear. Showed C51 serial communications error) Finally got around to working on it a month ago. Started by cleaning all electrical connections, then took off clutch, rebuilt and reinstalled. Then rewired all farkles I had previously installed to clean up electrical system.
Bike started and seemed to run fine while on center stand. No more F1 error light. But now the bike stalls out when the rear hand brake is engaged. Tried putting it on the floor to see if I could get it to downshift but bike learched forward on startup and immediately stalled when I hit the brakes to avoid running into one of my work benches.
Did find I had a bad brake switch which I removed and have reordered. But that has no effect on bike issue.
So any thoughts? Did I just screw up clutch rebuild? (only replaced springs and gasket. Everything else was within spec.) CVT issues? (have previously replaced both PPS sensor and Stopper Bolt. Both appear good.) Electrical? Missed putting a connection back together? Mouse chew a wire?
I do not look forward to playing with the CVT, but.......
Welcome any advice or thoughts.
Thanks,
Better Late Than Never (BLTN57)

 

[NormanB]

This really sounds like the clutch has 'locked up' in the sense it is not 'releasing'.

This is absolutely noting to do with CVT issues so relax.

 

[MJR]

Maybe. Either something in the clutch is not right or your CVT is stuck in a higher ratio and not letting the clutch release. Suggest running it on the center stand and noting the speed indicated on the speedometer. Then put the CVT in Manual or Power and see if the speed indicated changes. If the speed changes then the problem is likely in the clutch. If the speed doesn't change it's likely the CVT is stuck in a higher ratio which won't let the clutch disengage.

 

[NormanB]

Fair point!:flower:

 

[BLTN57]

NormanB & MJR, Thank you both for your replies. it is up on the center stand still stripped down. Will run it today and change drive modes as suggested. Will post the results.
Thanks again.

 

[BLTN57]

Alright, as per recommendation ran bike on center stand and locked brakeaway cruise control at 20mph. Pressed the power button and speed dropped to 19. Pressed power button again (disengage) and speed went back to 20. Then changed to manual and speed went down to 18 and back to 20 when returned to auto.
Is this enough of a speed change that the problem is the clutch? Am wondering if I might have over torqued the clutch screw when reinstalling? Guess we will find out as I will be taking the clutch off again, I am assuming.
Advice gentlemen??

 

[MJR]

I was rather hoping you might let the bike idle and see what speeds are indicated. I will try what you did to see what result I get on my bike.

Running it on the centerstand and the centerstand switch unbolted and hanging free you could raise the RPMs and see if in manual mode it will change gears. If it upshifts to 2nd and can be shifted back into 1st then the clutch could be the problem.

 

[miken6mz]

Your CVT seems to be changing ratios normally, that 20 > 18 > 20 from D > 1 > D sounds about right, or sounds about the same as my K4 ratio changes anyway.

Not to belittle your wrench-turning abilities but if you recently did major work on the clutch then I'd be suspicious of that area. Good luck.

 

[MJR]

Your CVT seems to be changing ratios normally, that 20 > 18 > 20 from D > 1 > D sounds about right, or sounds about the same as my K4 ratio changes anyway.

Agreed tested the same on one of my bikes, go for the clutch.

 

[Dave_J]

And an answer to the question of stuck in 1st gear, before you took the clutch apart is the center stand switch can get stuck in and needs cleaning or tweeking. It must pop out when taken off the center stand or it will not upshift.

 

[BLTN57]

Thanks to all for your information and advice. It is greatly appreciated. Should have some time tomorrow to begin on clutch again. Will post asap with results.
Thank you again to one and all.

 

[BLTN57]

Ok here is the latest. Drained trans oil, removed clutch, took apart and rebuilt (again). With exception of clutch shaft which i was unable to remove during either rebuild. Though it looks fine from what I can see, but I am sure that does not mean much. Reassembled, put oil back in and started it. No change. Applying rear brake still causes bike to stall. I then unbolted center stand switch ran bike in manual. Was able to go from 1st thru to 5th and back down again, but could still not get clutch to release and use rear brake. Will be taking clutch off again and replacing the drive plates (4) which do show a little discoloration (but did seem to be within spec) and also the five clutch plate spring washers.
As always looking for whatever assistance or advice is available.
How do I go about getting the clutch shaft out? Have been leery about using to much force. But at this point I want to take a good look at all the parts.
Its to **** nice out to have the bike sitting there naked in the garage.

 

[MJR]

If you have a tool that can compress the clutches without removing the shaft then there is no need to remove it. Here's a link to LeDudes article on the clutch rebuild which shows making a holder to remove (necessary for reinstalling/torquing) the shaft nut while in the bike.

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1v-h81GVriXr9pUFZ7UwmgKV97dTqIN2HSDeb9wWjOCc

The clutch is a simple mechanical device and engages once a certain rotational speed is achieved. If there is nothing wrong within the clutch then the only thing it could be is if the CVT was not really in low. What does the speedometer read at idle? If the CVT is suspected the first thing I would do is make sure the pulley position sensor is in correctly since it seems to be shifting but might be indicating its in low when its not actually in low.

 

[BLTN57]

First things first. Thank you for your continued assistance, believe me it is greatly appreciated. I have made the clutch compression tool from LeDude and have used it to disassemble and reassemble the clutch twice so far.
I will take another look at the PPS and ensure it is working properly and is seated properly in the bike.
The last time I started the bike I believe it read 9 mph initially and dropped to 8 when I went to manual and then back to 9. After increasing speed and shifting through the gears up to 5th and then back down, I think it ideled lower, but I don't remember the speed. Possibly 5 mph.
I currently still have the clutch on, but have drained the trans oil, in anticipation of removing it once more. If need be, I can add oil and start it again, if you have other thoughts or things I should try or test.

 

[BLTN57]

Checked the PPS. Smooth movement with good spring. Input voltage: 5.05; Resistance: .12-1.90 (ohm reading is below spec on the extended side and on the bottom of the spec range when depressed); Output voltage was unavailable as I cannot start bike with no transmission oil in bike. Should I fill it up and get output voltage?

 

[MJR]

The last time I started the bike I believe it read 9 mph initially and dropped to 8 when I went to manual and then back to 9. After increasing speed and shifting through the gears up to 5th and then back down, I think it ideled lower, but I don't remember the speed. Possibly 5 mph.

On the road the clutch disengages at about 8 mph so it sure sounds like the clutch is spinning too fast. Does the bike idle at it's proper RPM?

Engine idle speed: 1 200 ± 100 r/min

 

[BLTN57]

Yes, bike idle is approx. 1100 rpm. Lowered it to 1000 to see if it would help disengage clutch. No such luck.
Put trans oil back in and ran bike to get PPS output readings. 1st gear at idle: first reading was 2.58 all subsequent readings at idle were 3.05; 3rd gear .99; 5th gear .29

 

[ErikDK]

PPS output voltage: (+ Lbl/Y or Bl – - B)
1st-Idle rpm: Approx. 3.3 V
3rd-3000 rpm: Approx. 1.3 V
5th-3000 rpm: Approx. 0.5 V

You have found the fault: the primary pulley is not returning to the correct position, so the clutch spins to fast and never disengages.

Time to open up the CVT

 

[MJR]

Yes, bike idle is approx. 1100 rpm. Lowered it to 1000 to see if it would help disengage clutch. No such luck.
Put trans oil back in and ran bike to get PPS output readings. 1st gear at idle: first reading was 2.58 all subsequent readings at idle were 3.05; 3rd gear .99; 5th gear .29

You have found the fault: the primary pulley is not returning to the correct position, so the clutch spins to fast and never disengages.

Time to open up the CVT

On the last one I did I pulled the CVT motor (recommend unplugging it) out and with a flat blade screwdriver manually adjusted it to low, then started the bike verifying the clutch disengaged. If you pull the pulley position sensor (recommend unpluggin it also) you can see which way the pulley face is moving. For low I think the pulley has to be open all the way so there should be less distance between the PPS mounting surface and the face of the pulley.

I caution on using just the voltage readings because I have tested older bikes than ran just fine and found the readings didn't matchup correctly with those in the service manual.

 

[ErikDK]

The clutch starts to lock up just over idle, so the CVT failing to return to low will cause the clutch to engage, as the clutch RPM's are a product of engine RPM and CVT ratio.

MJR's suggestion of turning the mechanism by hand is very good.

Here's how the CVT works:

http://www.pirmil.info/scoot/ssiburg/650info_suzuki-1_cvtdemo.shtml