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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I installed the 20g sliders in the IceBurg this weekend with expected results.

I did weigh both the DPS and OEM weights. The OEM's were, in fact, 19g and the DPS were, oddly enough, 20g.

Indicated mph @ RPM

MPH --- rpm before --- rpm after

40 ~5K ~4.5K
50 5.2K 4.5K
60 5.8K 5K
70 6.8K 6K
80 7.8K 6.5K

So I am seeing the rpm reduction that is common to this modification. I also noticed a definite improvement in mpg but couldn't really quantify until this morning's commute. My typical mpg for my 33 mile morning ride is right around 62.2 (extrema +0.5, -1.2 mpg). This morning it was 65.25. My average morning ride varies between 1-2 mile stretches of pretty constant drafting @ 50-60 mph mixed with about 20 lights (I generally have to stop for 1/3 to 1/2 of these). If I leave early enough to catch all (or most of) the lights green then there is less traffic so I get less benefit from drafting so it tends to balance out.

As for performance, I admit to buyer's remorse after I purchased the 20g sliders. I wanted 19g but they would have been special order from my local shop (I have, recently, become slightly anal about supporting local businesses) and I didn't want to wait. I selected against the 18g product since my overall goal was rpm reduction at 75-80 mph and I am pretty satisfied with where I ended up in that regard. I probably would have been satisfied with the 18g product as well. I do not notice any difference between the OEM rollers and the 20g sliders. Accleration is probably indistiguishable unless you instrumented for it. My bike has always had a tendency to shudder for the first 5 minutes from cold. I have to be a little light on acceleration to minimize it. After 5 minutes, I can lean on it from a standing start and never experience any shudder at all. This is slightly better with the DPS but I really believe it was the cleaning of the variator and associated components that made the difference. There was a lot of dust mucking up the variator assembly.

In peforming the actual installation, I went with a variation of the tool mike1nw posted recently. Mine was made completely of 9/16 inch plywood cut in the shape of his (I didn't have any metal barstock around and didn't think it warranted purchasing). I did go with the 6, equally spaced, bolts. I covered the bolt threads with vinyl tubing (3/8 ID) and it was a simple slip fit. In regard to the plywood outline, you must have the offset arm (my tool was 8 inches in diameter with a 3 inch wide arm) so you clear the clutch bell with the tool in place. I started with a piece of scrap plywood I had that was 12 inches x 24 inches. I drew the 8 inch circle (7 inch would have been better for clearance) in the bottom left corner of the plywood. Then I drew a line 3 inches from the bottom and a 45 degree gusset tangent to the circle. Cut this out with a handheld saber saw. I drilled the center hole with a 1" spade bit (start from the top, finish from the bottom) and quickly discovered this was too small so I enlarged it with the saw. You could get by with a 1 1/2 inch center hole. Mark the bolt locations as described in mike1nw's thread. 6 bolts is REALLY overkill. I was rather surprised at how easily the shaft nut came off. The vinyl tubing on the bolts takes care of a certain amount of imprecision in the bolt location and makes the tool somewhat sticky in that it tends to stay in position, once placed. Took about an hour to cut and assemble the tool (I work slow and SWMBO is a stickler for cleanup). 3 bolts is really enough to distribute the force and, after having done this once, 1/4 inch plywood would provide ample strength. The bolts I used were 3/8 x 2" with appropriate nuts and 1.25 inch washers on both sides. I'm going to drill acouple of 5/16 holes in the arm to hold the 8x1.25 50mm bolts so they don't get lost.

On a side note, a 15/16ths socket is virtually identical to a 24mm socket. I could've saved $6 using the one I had but did not want to make a trip in the middle so I went ahead and purchased the 24mm.

The entire job, including building the tool, took right around 4 hours from center stand down to center stand up.

What I built:
 

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Have you ever checked your speedometer readings, vs. a device of known accuracy (GPS, etc.)?

The speedometer my '03 and many other's older Burgmans (400 and 650) exhibit a +10% error; I am curious as to whether the newer models have improved accuracy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I'm definitely 10% high on the speedo.

Around 5 % low on the indicated mpg and really close on the odometer (less than 1% off, if at all).
 

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Chatman, that's absolutely marvellous information! Thanks for posting it. I too am currently considering a 'jump' to the sliders. But I feel unsure as to what weight/gms to go for. With the 20grm, do you find the machine is going ok into headwinds at 60mph for example? Is it producing enough torque/power at 5.2k rpm to not be straining itself? Cliffy, can you add anything to this from your own experience with your earlier Burgman? And what size weights are you using please?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I do not notice anything different at all as far as performance goes with the 20g sliders. Then again, I'm not really a performance oriented rider.
Only by checking the tach do I notice a difference from OEM. And that is what I really desired, I wanted my high cruise rpm to drop somewhat and it is this drop that, I think, makes up the bulk of any fuel savings you realize. You can think of it as the engine taking a certain amount of fuel to turn over at a particular rpm. Reduce the rpm and you reduce that portion of your fuel consumption. I realize it is much more involved than that but it works for my tiny brain. If you have any shuddering issues, you might want to consider the 18g as they may (should) deliver a higher engine rpm when the clutch starts engaging.

When I was trying to qualm my 'buyers remorse' I started thinking a bit about how much variation is experienced by the different weight sliders during a couple of operating conditions. For a constant rpm, the force exerted by the slider is equal to mv^2/radius (in your units of choice). Holding the force constant, varying the mass by 10%, you would change your rpm by about 5%. In practical terms this means that if your clutch locked up at 3k with 20g sliders, it would lock up at around 3150 with 18g sliders. This assumes a linear relationship between CVT effective ratio and variator-weight force, which I am not at all certain of. But again, my tiny brain can only think small thoughts, so this is what I go with.

cliffyk might be able to add more insight into this phenomena. He's got more toys and appears to know how to use them :thumbup:
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Quantum Mechanic said:
do you find the machine is going ok into headwinds at 60mph for example
To answer your specific question specifically... :D

Headwinds are kind of subjective but...
On a calm day (yesterday) the transition from 0 to 60 mph (indicated) was no different before than after. As was 0 - 70 mph (indicated).

Never tried this before but was mildly curious, it was early - light traffic - small chance for receiving local performance award so...
I did have it up to 100 mph (indicated) and it takes a while to go from 90 to 100. You also do not experience the 'kick down' nearly as much at that point, but the sliders are whirling their little hearts out (myself, I was cheering them on). From 70-80, you do get the 'kick down' and the Burg acclerates nicely. But you're not going to race anything.
 

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:D Awesome! I'm famous!
The plywood I used was 1/2 inch I think. I like your idea of putting hose on the exposed bolt threads.

Ride on!
 

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Here are a couple links to my CVT modifications, on my blog; chapter 1 and chapter 2.

I have some other points of analysis for the CVT's operation however I am caught up in a former client's "Monday morning combined with a change of fiscal years" problems for will likely be the rest of the day--I will get back when I can...
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I have seen Cliff's CVT notes before but in this current light, I could try and replicate his test at 5 mph intervals and see what numbers I could come up with. Then we would have 2 sets of numbers for 2 sets of DPS weights on two different bikes from 2 pretty different drive arrangements. If you read other parts of his notes you will see that the variator plates are also pretty different. Not much is going to be useful there I'm afraid.

I suppose one could collect a bunch of data points and try and fit this into a third order polynomial. I think wind effects would dominate the third order coeffecient and CVT losses, engine losses, and rolling resistance would dominate the first order coefficient. Hopefully the second order coefficient would be indicative of whats happening in the variator/slider relationships. I don't know how the whole torque multplier would effect any of this.

Or we could all take a nap in preparation for a nice ride. :cheers:

I'd be really interested to hear what else Cliff may have to offer. The guy's go it going on.
 

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Great post chatman128. Much appreciate the detail and experience.

My 2011 400 also experiences the cold shudder effect. I find it a little upsetting, and it seems to help to rev up to around 6K rpm from a stop, but that is a little to much acceleration for around town use. I really think most if it is due to dirt/dust in the clutch. I was having a similar experience on my smaller scooter, and after riding it in the rain for the last two days it has really smooted out and runs much better. I may have to get Lightning out in the rain soon and see if that treatment helps it. We had a hot dry Summer here in the Midwest, probably contributed to the dirt/dust.

Cheers,
 

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I have had not even one CVT/clutch annoyance or complaint in the last 2500 miles, since installing the Adige clutch. It is as quiet and smooth as could be, at any temperature or otherwise. It is a shame they do not make one for the '07+ models.

With my variator mods and the 18 g sliders it starts to engage just a bit below 3000 engine rpm and is locked by 3500. I have no firm data as to what the clutch rpm is at that point, however from what I can determine watching the CVT with the cover off it is definitely less than the engine speed; perhaps engaging at 2500 rpm and locked by 3000.

I purposely fiddled with things to get the "hard acceleration" engine speed as high as I could, up into to the engine's peak powerband at 6000 (torque peak) to 7600 (HP peak) rpm. With the ramp plate mods and sliders the engine rises to 6300 rpm on hard acceleration from a stop, and then at 40 to 45 rises a bit more to 6500+. Doing the math this is forcing the CVT ratio to 1.5:1 or so at 45 mph and 6500 rpm. Lighter sliders would allow this to go a bit higher however I am pleased with the acceleration as it is--which is rather spritely. I can keep up with stock Harleys (which are not all that fast) quite nicely. Surprises the crap out of them.

Once you back off and let the sliders shift, and the torque multiplier unwind, the revs at steady speed cruising drop and stabilise as shown below:

 
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