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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
The nice thing about this thread, http://burgmanusa.com/forums/12-general-discussion/87226-help-pulling-trigger.html, is when I looked at my sales invoice I just realized that my dealer ripped me off $327.24 in sales tax. I had a trade in and they failed to deduct the trade in price from the price of the new Burgman 650. When I called and talked to the finance guy he said sometimes they do it to compensate for giving to high of a trade in value, :confused:. Sounds like fraud to me, as the tax is listed as $764.91 on the invoice and it should have been $437.67. I'll have to see what the state tax collectors have to say about this. But in AZ the trade in value is deducted from the price of the new vehicle and sales tax is paid on the difference. Based on what the finance guy said it sounds like they sent to the state $437.67 and kept the $327.24.
 

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But in AZ the trade in value is deducted from the price of the new vehicle and sales tax is paid on the difference.
Interesting. I always thought a trade in was just like putting down a deposit cash; no deduction for sales tax purposes. But laws could be different in AZ. You should check in to it. If its true, I'd report them to the state board of Equalization. Or at least threaten to do so. Whatever they collect from the customer is what they have to remit to the state. They have a fiduciary duty to do so.

Its a huge penalty for them to keep sales tax collections. The state can even "pierce the corporate veil" and go after the owners personal property to satisfy the debt.

Oh and congratulations on the new bike.
 

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I may be wrong here but what it looks like to me is that the dealer
as done a bit of creative accounting, they have worked the figgers
so they pay less tax and passed on at least some of this to you
to sweeten the PX price/deal, would not bother me.
 

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I'd report them to the state board of Equalization. Or at least threaten to do so. Whatever they collect from the customer is what they have to remit to the state. They have a fiduciary duty to do so. Its a huge penalty for them to keep sales tax collections.
Report them? I wouldn't hesitate, and I would keep on top of all communications with the tax office until I knew the end result. If it was you that had fiddled your tax you'd very soon know about it! What's good for the goose, etc.
 

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Don't forget, he is you dealer you don't want to be on is bad side. Just go see him and have him explain the bill, then go from there.
 

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Flash is right...go see them and talk about it and see if it has an effect on YOUR price. If not, I would say it is dealer accounting and they do this every day.

Who was the dealer and are you happy with your deal?
 

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Don't forget, he is you dealer you don't want to be on is bad side. Just go see him and have him explain the bill, then go from there.
Yes, in retrospact I guess this is the best way, always bearing in mind that the dealer always knew exactly what he was doing and therefore it's still a tax fiddle.
 

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I'm in florida and the correct way is to deduct the trade in price then calculate the tax. What the finance department told you is a scam and in Florida they would be very stupid to not apologize and refund my money real fast.
I don't know AZ but I imagine if you dove there and spoke to the sales manager or owner he would do the same. By law you already paid sales tax on your trade at time of purchase so this is double taxation. I know he's is your dealer but finance department is just trying to rob you.
Just explain to sales manager in a nice way that you found this mistake on your invoice and you would like it corrected. If he doesn't then explain what the finance department told you and since you already paid tax on the trade once you will be contacting the state or IRS about this matter. About that time you should feel a gust of wind, that would be the manager rushing to get you your hard earned money. This is stealing and unless you are ok to let someone steal from you.
 

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Is what they offer you for trade what shows up on the contract? Or did they show more for the trade than they actually gave you. In Florida you pay tax on the difference in sales price and trade in. Example: New bike $7000.00- Trade in $1000.00= $6000.00 X tax rate= Final price
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
The invoice was like this:

Sale price of the Burg_________________$8,999.00
Dealer Freight______________________ $0
Dealer Assembly_____________________$0
Total Accessories_____________________$0
Lojack_____________________________$0
Sub Total__________________________$8,999.00
Sales Tax__________________________$764.91= 8.5%

A Lot off stuff like Maintenance, Gap Ins,
Theft Protection, Tire/Wheel Protection
La de da da dee and so on, which I
would never pay a dealer for__________$0

Registration_______________________$173.02
My favorite, Dealer titling/Processing__$349.95
Grand Total_______________________$10,286.88
Trade Allowance for my 2009 TMax____$3,850.00
Balance Due______________________$6436.88

As you can see they taxed the total amount of Burgman and didn't deduct my trade before figuring the sales tax. If they sent $764.91 to the state then it was just a little mistake and they can amend their paperwork and give me my $327.24. But if they sent $437.67 to the state then they would of had to change the figures on the invoice and that would be fraud plain and simple.

The price of $8999.00 was an advertised price that also stated no freight or setup fees in the add. When I called about the add, I asked the sales guy if the out the door price was $8999.00+Sales Tax+Registration and was told yes. When I saw the original write up of the order they had there little Dealer Titling/Processing fee of $349.95. They originally offered me $3500.00 for the Tmax which I was fine with but they refused to take off the T/P Fee. I then stated I wanted $350.00 more for the trade to offset the T/P Fee and they agreed.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Don't forget, he is you dealer you don't want to be on is bad side. Just go see him and have him explain the bill, then go from there.
I could not give a rat's behind if they didn't want me as a customer. The chances of them getting me to let them work on my Burg are slim to none. There are lots of Suzuki dealers here in the Phoenix area so if the Burg needs warranty work I can take it to another dealer. Once it's out of warranty then I would happily do all the work myself.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Flash is right...go see them and talk about it and see if it has an effect on YOUR price. If not, I would say it is dealer accounting and they do this every day.

Who was the dealer and are you happy with your deal?


I've called three times now. But for the first time when I talked to the finance manager, who said he would call me back and never did, I've been unable to get a hold of either the manager or finance guy again. I usually get told they will give them a message to call me and never get a call. Or I get their voice mail leave a message and never get a call back.

I assure you I am not a screamer demanding this and that. I speak calmly and tell my point of view, which in this case was they over charged me the sales tax. I wasn't asking for anything but the $327.24 I should have never been charged.

We have something here in Phoenix call 3 on your side. It's the local news show that loves going to businesses and asking them why they ripped off somebody. I'm sure my dealer would love being on the local news explaining that they made a mistake and that they'll review their records and see how many other mistakes they made with other sales that involved trade ins.:D
 

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Go see them. Make sure that they ripped you off and not just the state. Didn't you see and agree to paperwork before you signed and took possession?

I doubt a TV station will get involved and will just ask you the same questions I did above.
 

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In Google, I searched "In Arizona how is sales tax computed on a new car with a trade-in" There are many results, this is but one.

http://www.realcartips.com/selling/010-states-that-allow-trade-in-tax-credit.shtml

States That Allow Trade-in Tax Credit

One major benefit to trading-in your used car is most States give you a tax credit when purchasing a new car.
For example, if your new car costs $20,000 and you have a trade-in worth $5,000, then you only have to pay sales tax on $15,000. If your sales tax rate is 10%, you're looking at savings of $500 in this particular case.

The following states currently allow a tax credit on your trade-in as of January 2011:

* The Potential Savings is based on a trade-in worth $5,000

State Maximum Tax Rate Potential Savings *
Alabama 10.5 $525
Alaska 7.5 $375
Arizona 11.73 $587
. . . . . etc



My layman's interpretation is that this applies only if you are trading in to buy a brand new vehicle. OP - If your Burgman is brand new, I believe you were indeed ripped off.
 

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www.realcartips.com said:
The only states that DO NOT currently give a tax credit as of January 2011 are:
California
District of Columbia
Hawaii
Kentucky
Maryland
Michigan
Montana
Virginia
This doesn't surprise me living in the state where the registration fees are on a sliding scale based on the original sales price for the life of it and charging full price sales tax on cell phones bought on contract. In fact I wasn't even aware other states were different and fair about sales tax on a trade in. I often wonder why I live here but then again I can ride year round.
 

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This doesn't surprise me living in the state where the registration fees are on a sliding scale based on the original sales price for the life of it and charging full price sales tax on cell phones bought on contract. In fact I wasn't even aware other states were different and fair about sales tax on a trade in. I often wonder why I live here but then again I can ride year round.
Whether allowing for a trade in or not when calculating is fair or not depends on the tax rate. When Virginia initiated a titling tax many years ago, they considered deducting the value of a trade-in but the trucking industry objected since they buy very expensive vehicles and wear them out where they are not traded in or are traded in at a very low value. They successfully argued that a lower tax rate on the total price would be more fair than a higher rate with a trade-in subtraction. Our titling tax rate went from the original 3% to 4% on July 1, 2013. When I see the tax rates most of the states charge, I am happy with paying tax on the full price.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Yes it was one of their Dealerships.

The general manager sent me an email today after I filled out and sent in a online survey asking about my buying experience. The survey is on their website and I figured it might get someone's attention, I guess it did. He apologized for no one returning my calls and assured me he would look into it personally tomorrow and get back to me. He said that it must have been a clerical error and said the dealership doesn't make any money on sales tax. He also said if I over paid the tax they would refund me the difference. We will see what happens.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Go see them. Make sure that they ripped you off and not just the state. Didn't you see and agree to paperwork before you signed and took possession?

I doubt a TV station will get involved and will just ask you the same questions I did above.
Yes, I did see the paperwork but I didn't calculate the tax which I just assumed they would do correctly. And in answer to your previous post I did and do think I got a good deal on the scooter. I did and do think they offered me a fair trade in value for my Tmax. But $327.00 isn't something to say, oh well about. At least it isn't to me but I'm not a rich man.

I think the TV station would get involved especially if 1, the dealership doesn't advertise with their channel and 2, if they suspect there might be more than one case of this going on and it involves fraud. This would be an easy case to figure out simply by getting the statement they filed with the state/county/city, a public record, and seeing what they claimed they took in on the sale as sale tax, then just compare it to my written bill of sale. This is right up 3 ON YOUR SIDE'S alley and they seem to love looking at public records and finding discrepancies that point to wrong doing. This isn't a case of he said this and they say that, there is going to be a nice easy to follow paper trail. I would rather not do it because after going to their website it says I must agree to an on air interview which I would prefer not to do.
 

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Yeah, they tend to have the worst reputation in town. I highly recommend just doing your best to steer clear of them. Even on parts they overcharge. And when I did have them do warranty work, they did it wrong. But, I will say, they towed my bike for free which was great.
 
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