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Discussion Starter #61
I think cryptic is putting it mildly, all you can do is look out for key words that give you some clues.

That is a good point on the Motul 300v being described as a racing oil.
True race oils are intended for a short, violent life in an engine that will be rebuilt several times a year so they don’t need the preservative level of road going oils etc etc - but I don’t know what the actual recipe of 300v is. They may make concessions for the fact that Joe Public can just pick it up off the shelf too, I’d be guessing.

I certainly avoid Oil or tyres with “race” or “racing” on it for a normal vehicle.
(putting me on a race bike would be a waste of everybody’s time :) but had fun playing with race cars/race planes )
 

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...
but had fun playing with race cars/race planes
What a life! Jealous...

It's interesting that on the Royal Purple website you have to have a company log-in to view the SDS sheets - wonder what info they're trying to limit.

You've given some good info here. I can at least do a little research and (hopefully) make a better-informed choice than before. For sure I'll be going back to a motorcycle-specific oil for the scooters. Good timing since the 400 is coming due soon.
 

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You can always go waste a few hours over at www.bobistheoilguy.com but that site is a bit... biased at times.

The only true test of how an oil is or is not working is to send in a sample for testing.
 

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You can always go waste a few hours over at www.bobistheoilguy.com but that site is a bit... biased at times.

The only true test of how an oil is or is not working is to send in a sample for testing.
...or a few WEEKS, lol. I occasionally visit a specific forum or thread when I have some question but I don't just start perusing...ain't nobody got time for that!
 

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So...are you saying that for bikes, (most) any car oil is not as good as a motorcycle-specific oil? Of course, I always use a 10W-40 JASO-MA rated oil (usually synthetic, but sometimes dino) in the bikes with a wet clutch. But in the scoots with no wet clutch I have been using a synthetic 10W-40 car oil. For best wear resistance and longevity should I use the JASO motorcycle oil in the scooters as well? Price isn't the issue, I just assumed the regular oil would actually be better since it has friction modifiers (more slippery-er) that are detrimental to multi-plate wet clutches.
Hi G-Dub, It's exactly what Bluebottle is saying in his reply. Bike oil is better by far. I cannot stress that enough. Car oil is far inferior to mostly all bike oil. That was a clear conclusion from our testing, but with one or two exceptions that won't concern most folks on here. Bike oil is streaks ahead in the protection it offers your scooter or motorcycle. That should not be a surprise to anyone except the folks who believe in conspiracy theories by the oil companies to get more money out of you. It really isn't.

By the way, as many on here will tell you, Bluebottle is a highly respected and skilled technician and science guy with loads of practical experience in many fields. He is totally trusted.
 

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Thanks, I appreciate that info. It's good to have research and technical information to base choices on. As we all know, a lot of mis-information and opinion gets passed around as fact on the subject.
 

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Somehow i knew it wouldn't take too long for a new oil thread to get started :)
 

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What, you want we should have a "used oil" thread too? :D
Certainly -- heard from Marines it's great for cooking.
Actually this is a good thread with new insights, however that only stresses extra time that ice technology is very well dated like that oil that has not been changed for hundred thousand miles.
 

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After a ride in the country I changed the oil with Royal Purple Max-Cycle synthetic. Had 3000 miles on the used oil, which I realized was in fact a motorcycle oil, Castrol synthetic Racing 4T. Will just use the Royal Purple from here on in all the bikes, including gear boxes that call for 10w40.
 

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G-Dub, sounds good.

One of the things folks underestimate concerning using car oils or other non motorcycle oils such as Rotella (a good oil in cars and trucks) in their bikes is just how much extra engine wear their engines can suffer while using it. This includes the extra risk you take from early component failure due to poor oil film strength and cling compared to motorcycle oils. This also affects rider safety. These failures do occur more often in bikes that are using non specific motorcycle oils. We proved that. It isn't just about how long the engine will last, but how well the engine will run whilst it's getting to it's final days.

One point to make that we observed. 10-40 semi-synthetic MOTORCYCLE oil was still better in most cases at protecting the engine than many car and truck synthetic engine oils, and that includes many of the 'true' synthetics. Diesel engines have very specific requirements of their oils such as high detergents and some other additives etc. High oil film strength is not one of them as diesel engines are quite easy on their oils compared to petrol engines inspite of high compression ratios. This is down to the diesel fuel itself which is a lubricant, not a solvent as petrol is. A super high 'cling' rate is also not required due to the lower revs of a diesel engine. Just two of the reasons diesels don't actually stress their oils.

Engines that are run on car/truck oils and the like often don't produce as much power as they could because of the lubrication deficit you get with oils such as those. This leads to increased friction (read engine wear) and reduced power. This is measurable on the dyno and has been shown to be as much as 4-5% power reduction depending on the type of motor engine concerned. Not much you may think, but it has an impact on engine life and this will reduce fuel economy too.

Aside from the above reduced power and poorer fuel economy (which will vary from bike to bike, rider to rider, but is always there!) you often find bikes run on car oils exhibit a higher oil consumption rate especially when the engine has covered the first 20,000+ miles of it's life. Of course you could also say it's due to the variable way owners run in their bikes and ride them. But our testing system bypassed any variable on this so our results were completely credible. This extra oil consumption is usually due to the cylinder bores beginning to wear or even glaze much earlier than a bike run on motorcycle oils. As some on here will know, I was trained as a forensic engineer for my job. It's possible to tell not only how someone has run in their engine from examining the engine components, but to tell quite accurately what oils have been used in that engine by looking at the amount of engine wear present, and making a detailed examination of the surfaces of various load bearing metals in the engine. The oils leave trace markers in the form of additives in the metals. It got so I could tell which engines we had been running on car oils, and which ones had been using proper motorcycle oils, without a metallurgists report, as the extra engine wear was quite striking in many cases on engines not run on motorcycle oils. This technique allowed us to 'Blueprint' engines from new, through assembly, and into the running life of the engines with the motors being stripped at defined intervals for re-blueprinting so we knew exactly how much engine wear was taking place.

It's up to the individual, but it does beg the question why anyone would spend thousands of dollars on a magnificent motorcycle or scooter which for many is their pride and joy, and then decide to risk putting truck oil in it just to save a few dollars, and often knowing it will lead to increased engine wear. Many folks have said to me "it's ok, I change it much more often"! Really! One guy on here a while ago now, who will remain nameless (but some of you will know him) tells me he changed his Burgman 400 oil every 1500 miles because he only ever puts dino car oil in it. But he saves loads of dollars by doing that, he said!! Well, it doesn't make any difference. Poor oil is poor oil and it isn't protecting his engine, which probably explains why he was complaining of high oil consumption at quitel low miles and has now changed his bike for another make. It didn't save him even a dollar by doing that car oil thing!

So G-Dub, you are safer using the oil you've chosen. Safer from early mechanical failure, your engine will last longer, you will get maximum fuel economy and minimum oil usage, and maintain maximum engine power output for longer. Thanks for posting.
 

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See Bluebottles comments below the picture.

JASO MA VS MB.jpg



Be careful about confusing “higher standard” with “better for this purpose”, it doesn’t always follow that way.

First, it isn’t going to ruin your engine overnight so don’t worry.

Jaso MA and MB have different friction modifiers.
MB reduces friction more, it’s better in that sense and will help reduce wear, fuel consumption and emissions. Reducing emissions is probably why Suzuki are recommending it in their automatics now as regs have become tighter recently With Euro 5 etc coming into force.

People often say there no friction modifiers in MA which isn’t true, it’s just that the friction value is designed to fit a particular value range for MA/MA1/MA2.
MB can be as low as they can get it - so it is too slippy to be MA (kind of worse because it’s better :) )

Having said that they me relying on MB to help in a way I haven’t heard of.
Try searching for “scooter oil” rather than ”motorcycle oil” as that is how some makers refer to MB.

Boring technical bit you can ignore if you wish:
Friction modifiers are additive molecules that have an affinity for metal/ceramic. Part of the molecule like to bond with engine materials, other parts stand off. These get rubbed and pounded into the surface and tend to align and create a slippery, self repairing coating.
So you get metal-coating-oil-coating-metal and fewer hills and valleys.

This process also displaces contaminants from the surface, cleaning it and reducing damage those particles might cause.

In true synthetic oils (ie not US Rotella type synth), the oil itself has polar properties - carrying and holding the modifiers in place while they are pounded into place and other ester molecules will then bond to this metal-bonded molecule.

With dyno oils (US also calls severe hydrocracked dyno oils synthetics) the modifiers tend to have a different additive that helps carry and deposit the molecules ready for the mechanical action to pummel them into a nice useful condition.
 
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