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yes I am laughing , I am also learning, my second favorite activity after riding chasing wimmin and enjoying refreshing beverages and chasing wimmin .

maybe later you can explain why I can't put a magnet back together
 
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Discussion Starter #23 (Edited)
There was a study done by the Paradise Garage years ago on synthetic oils that I thought was interesting....One caveat to what you'll read there. At the time of the study, Mobil 1 was a "true" synthetic with a PAO base. Now, you can't find out what it uses for a base stock, only that it is synthetic.
I had a look at that article, they mention and link to an SAE study but I think their link has the wrong ref. Number (the one they link is about zero phosphorous oil studies)
I think they meant to link to a study where SAE and Ford noticed wear decreasing rather than increasing as a 5W30 oil aged.

This is a bit deceptive because it was an experiment with friction modifiers and the whole point of those is they get hammered into the surface over time and make the surface slippy - so the oil behaved exactly as expected, not because it was left dirty.

Not a criticism of what the Paradise Garage did/said and doesn’t change anything, just clearing up the broken link and a detail that didn’t sit right.
 

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I was actually surprised to find the web page anymore. A couple years ago, I looked for it, and it appeared to have been abandoned. I figured the owners were not renewing whoever they were paying to host the info. Then yesterday I found what appeared to be a working page. I'm not surprised if some of the links weren't correct. Overall though, I think there's a lot there that can be helpful info.

What I did like about it, was how they actually did some testing to see when the Mobil 1 and Amsoil broke down. So many folks make assertions on oil products based on nothing more than repeating marketing hype.


There was link on DuckDuckGo to a web page that was pretty negative about Mobil 1. http://synlube.com/Mobil1-comparison-to-SynLube.html You would expect that, since they are making a comparison to some product that they sell. But I found it interesting to just follow the history of Mobil 1. A short way down the page, they mentioned that Mobil 1 developed a reputation for high oil consumption. That brought back memories.

My first new car was a 1975 VW Rabbit. (Golf in Europe.) I wanted only the best for it, being as it was my first new car. I had been reading about how great synthetic oil was and so I put Mobil 1 in it. A short time later, I'm driving down the road and a red light flashes on the dashboard, then goes out. What?! I didn't see what it was, but this had me concerned. I come up to the next stop light and it flashes again. This time, I'm watching for it. It was the oil light. Luckily, there was a Mobil gas station at the next corner, so I pulled in. There was no oil on the dipstick! I put 2.5 quarts in it, and it only took 4 quarts max. Where did it go?

At that time, I lived in base housing, just a couple blocks from the freeway. I figured that the 5W-20 oil was still in that 5W stage as the car hit the freeway and the oil was just passing right through. I did some soul-searching and decided to go back to conventional oil. At $4 a quart in 1975, this stuff was expensive. And if it was going to go through the engine that quickly, I was going to spend a lot of money on trying to prevent engine wear. In the end, it would be cheaper to simply rebuild the engine at that cost!

We kept that 75 Rabbit for 9 years. With conventional oil, it didn't use any in between oil changes.


I have no idea how that long story is relevant to a discussion of the reproductive capabilities...oh, wait...the detergents being used in oil. :D

Chris
 
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It's like doing some research on oils over on BobIsTheOilGuy. Bob is Bob Schaeffer of Schaeffer's Oil so it use to be if you said anything bad about Schaeffer's oil it got squashed. Lately it seems to have become an Amsoil page.


But you can still go look at "Used Oil Analyst" to see how well a oil does in driving. Some oils members over there have done a analyst on New oil and then later at xxxx miles used. Take them or leave them, just another resource to view.
 

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Can anyone tell me why when I go to Walmart I am no longer finding 10w40 motor oil?

The only 10w-40 oil on the shelf is Mobile 1.
 
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Discussion Starter #29 (Edited)
Can anyone tell me why when I go to Walmart I am no longer finding 10w40 motor oil?

The only 10w-40 oil on the shelf is Mobile 1.
Mostly because it is considered old technology now.
Modern car engines now have much finer mechanical tolerances and modern group 4/group 5 oils have better protection at a lower viscocity than the old ones that can make the most of it - so the market has moved towards where the money is - 0w30, 5w30

Also part of oil companies drive to reduce emissions (fewer emissions with lower viscocity oil)
 

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Can anyone tell me why when I go to Walmart I am no longer finding 10w40 motor oil?

The only 10w-40 oil on the shelf is Mobile 1.
A couple reasons.
1. Supply and Demand.
2. Vendors not taking the "Walmart" cut in profit per item. Walmat sets a price and if the Vendor wishes to sell it there they must take Walmart's price.
3. Under paid Walmart management and workers being lazy and not stocking the shelfs. Automotive is a lower priority sales area of Walmart. So Management will push workers to stock the faster moving items over the slower ones.
4. Distribution areas. I have found items out of stock in one cities Walmart but in another many many miles away they are overstocked.
 

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Mostly because it is considered old technology now.
Modern car engines now have much finer mechanical tolerances and modern group 4/group 5 oils have better protection at a lower viscocity than the old ones that can make the most of it - so the market has moved towards where the money is - 0w30, 5w30

Also part of oil companies drive to reduce emissions (fewer emissions with lower viscocity oil)
The 400 owners manual wants 10w40. Here in Houston, this time of year (avg 95+) do I ignore the owners manual and go with a thicker 15w-30 or 15w-50...if I can find it. Or is 10w-30 (most common on shelf) ok to use in Houston summer weather?
 

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What I did like about it, was how they actually did some testing to see when the Mobil 1 and Amsoil broke down. So many folks make assertions on oil products based on nothing more than repeating marketing hype.

AMSOIL vs Everything Else

Is it worth the extra cost $$$$?

 

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Discussion Starter #33
Entirely your decision
If it was mine there is no way I’d put 10w30 in it for hot and city use.
Out of those I’d go for the 15w50. It will push your mpg up very slightly, it is extra load on the engine - but I’d be confident it was safe at all times.

Then I’d order some 10w40 in off the ‘net for next time, just done buy a huge amount that will be lying around for years, the additives have a shelf life.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
AMSOIL vs Everything Else
Also:
Amsoil v others (including Rotella)
There has been a bit of a feud between Amsoil and Rotella fans for quite some time.
I never get involved in recommending one product over another, only in numbers and facts being accurate. That goes for oil, tyres or anything else.

Shearing out of grade -
 

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By that Kurt Orbahn chart, all those oils stayed in SAE 40 grade until they measured added fuel. At 2% the Rotella T fails a bit faster but comes back at 4% some. But it does prove that Amsoil is good. But is it JASO MA? Which ones are Wet Clutch safe other that the T6?

The Amsoil Motorcycle 10W40 is good but also $53 a gallon before shipping is added.....
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Its a bit problematic to draw exact values for real world equivalents from that particular test.
And there is room to argue about fairness. It gives you a chance to compare side by side results - but only for that test, but nothing more.

In Europe we use a different test, CEC L-14, also used by your military and vehicle manufacturers. They basically both tear up the VI polymers.

How does it compare to real world? ...Well, which engine? Different engines rip up polymers at different rates.
It can also be swayed by how many cycles you use, some oils drop quick and level off a bit, some start slow and get worse so the result at 30 cycles might be different to the result at 180 cycles (180 is a lot)
There are things like heat and start/stop cycles that affect real world results and aren’t covered by the test.

I wouldn’t’ spend much time over deciphering it other than Amsoil performs remarkably in that test.

Rotella has a bit of a reputation for for shearing downso Amsoil are going to target that.
Although I never saw it done, an oil/engine guy said he could shear it out of grade in a weekend when it was suggested. Obviously just talk but other people in the room were more than capable of holding is feet to the fire over anything inaccurate and it’s not an environment that suffers BS’ers even slightly.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
You guys might have had enough by now but here is some stuff about shear (and shear testing).

When oil boffins talk about “shear” it sounds like a scissor action chopping up the improvers but that isn’t what they mean.

If you imagine the improvers as little balls of springy spaghetti-
When they are beetling about minding there own business they are roughly round. When the oil gets squeezed through small spaces it squashes the improvers too. They tend to flatten out, this is known as “shear thinning” and it drops the viscocity temporarily - part of the temporary shear I mentioned earlier. When the pressure is off they bounce back.

The trouble is that the molecules don’t just get squished they get rolled around at the same time and generally abused. So bits get pulled off and the polymer can’t puff up as big anymore. That is permanent shear - and it happens without actually mashing the polymer between two pieces of metal.

The little bits that get pulled of are pretty useless and they are also a problem. Some of the gunk in the oil is these pesky little bits of polymer and they can form deposits that try to sticky up the engine internals.

Improvers come in different qualities and amounts - lots of improver and or poor improver = more shear available to be had.
True synthetic oil has fewer improvers than mineral or mineral derived “synthetics”
Wide range multigrade tend to have more improvers
Amounts are generally between 5% to 15% of the total fluid

For Rotella fans - it’s good news and bad news, on the up side the improvers in Rotella are at the high quality end (based on old info but to the best of my limited knowledge).

...run out of time to cover testing and finding results, will try later.
 

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As an aside here, too many think that their oil pressure is the pressure in their plain sleeve bearing journals. It is the feed pressure into the low pressure side of the high pressure pump....the journal itself. Internal pressures can reach 3000psi towards the small end. Journals are ground on a crank grinder & produce big & small ends. Only a centerless grinder grinds perfectly straight. Military helicopters in nam were loosing their rotor lube & it was a mystery untill someone mic'd up the roller bearings. They were tapered so the oil just got pumped out. Solution? Centerless grind the rollers...no more problems. No need to thank me for resurecting an earl thread/sticky...it was the least I could do.
 

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I use valvoline 10-40 motorcycle oil formulated for wet clutch applications, it seems to be working well so far, 8000 miles on my 650....reasonably priced......
 
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