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Discussion Starter #1
Have any forum users converted their headlights, in the Burgman 650 , to H.I.D. ?

I would be interested in which model/kit was used and it's results. Major modifications ?

Dennis 8)
 

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OK I just searched and found an answer to my question:


What are the advantages of HID?

Compared with your existing halogen lamp, which emits light through a heated filament, the HID Lamp has no filament. This means there is no filament to burn out, hence MUCH longer service life. Additional advantages of the HID Lighting Systems are 50% reduction in power consumption, 3 times the luminosity of conventional lamps, and a 5 times increase in life span over existing halogen lamps. Since the HID system consumes only 35W of power, it contributes to low fuel consumption and greater efficiency.

This could be a big (expensive) plus for those who like to run lots of electrical gadgets!
 

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If the lights are electric, and the alternator runs all the time when the 650's engine is running, how does a lower wattage light create better fuel economy? It uses less electricity yes, but ALL the electricity used on the 650 is simply a free byproduct of the gas engine. Even if you could turn the headlights completely OFF it would not save you any gas as the alternator is still putting the same drag on the engine. Likewise plugging your CB or cell phone charger into the 12v port will not reduce your gas mileage. They just use some of the abundant energy being produced by the alternator and stored in the battery.

The only way a different headlight will save you gas is if it improves the aerodynamics of the bike. Less air drag means better mileage.

Am I wrong here? If so, please feel free to explain why.
 

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4DThinker said:
If the lights are electric, and the alternator runs all the time when the 650's engine is running, how does a lower wattage light create better fuel economy?
As the electrical demand on the alternator increases, more juice is applied to the field coils so the alternator will produce more power. That increases the strength of the magnetic field, which adds a load to the alternator as the two magnetic fields interact -- one "pushing" through the other to force electrons to move through the wire -- requiring more power from the engine. It's a small difference on our Burgmans, but possibly measurable.

To really see the difference, try starting up a big diesel generator (which is done with no electrical load), then switch it on line. The RPMs will drop as soon as the load is applied, and the higher the load the more the RPMs will drop. Older generators required manual throttle adjustment to compensate, but that's almost always done automatically nowadays.

A really good demo is (or at least used to be) at the Pacific Science Center in Seattle. They had a bicycle hooked up to a generator, which was in turn hooked up to a bank of light bulbs. By turning a rotary switched one could add more lights to the load. With just one bulb burning, it was an easy job to pedal the bike and make the bulb burn brightly. But by the time 4 or 5 bulbs were on it was a bit of a strain to keep them lit, and by the time the 7th bulb was switched in, one would be standing on the pedals, huffing and puffing to keep them lit.

An excellent demo of physics, and also a reminder of the importance of energy conservation -- every bulb left burning has an energy cost.

HTH.
 

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Brian said:
4DThinker said:
As the electrical demand on the alternator increases, more juice is applied to the field coils so the alternator will produce more power.
HTH.
This would be correct if you were talking about a BMW but is completely wrong when it's the Burgman (or most Japanese bikes). The alternator is a permanent magnet type which produces full voltage regardless of load. If the load is not using all the watts generated, the excess is shunted to ground, producing heat in the regulator. It makes no difference to the charging system whether you are using lots of load or very little, the alternator produces it just the same. BMW and, I think, the 6 cylinder Hondas use a wound rotor which turns the field on and off to regulate voltage, just like cars do.
 

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The kind of alternator doesn't matter. It also doesn't matter that the Burgman puts out full voltage regardless of load. It's the LOAD (power) that matters. Power = Voltage X Current. With no load or a light load, the alternator will be producing a full 12V, but producing very little current. Therefore, it takes the engine very little energy to spin the alternator.

But apply a load (like, say, Pete's subwoofer :wink: ), and it will take more energy to spin that alternator. It's still the same voltage, but with an increased current, and therefore an increased power. Basically with a low load you're pushing through only a few electrons. With a higher load, you're trying to push through more electrons. So a higher electrical load DOES make the engine work harder, which reduces fuel economy slightly.
 

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You're not getting it. With a permanent magnet alternator, the *Load* is exactly the same, whether it's going to a radio, electric vest, bar heaters or the Zenner diode. Whatever isn't being used by accessories is being turned into heat and radiated into the air. If the load of electric clothing and such is more that the output of the alternator, the balance comes from the battery.
 

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No, the load isn't the same. I believe the diodes are there to convert the AC power into DC power only. They don't produce a load other than the few % loss in the power conversion process. But the power the alternator produces depends on the load applied to it -- the ignition system, lights, radio, heated vest, etc. As in the science museum example above; the more lights you want to light, the harder you have to pedal. Same thing with the scooter. It doesn't take much power to just run the ignition and headlights. But add your heated goodies, and the engine will have to work harder to spin the alternator.

If the alternator is producing the same power all the time, then where does the excess power go? If it's lost in heat, then where's the resistor? And when a real load is applied, then how is the switching done from one the mystery load to the real load?
 

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frugality said:
If the alternator is producing the same power all the time, then where does the excess power go? If it's lost in heat, then where's the resistor? And when a real load is applied, then how is the switching done from one the mystery load to the real load?
It goes the same place that it's been going since the Brits invented the Zenner diode. It's converted into heat and radiated to the air by the fins on the regulator/rectifier. Come on now, this isn't anything new. The same system has been used on almost all Japanese bikes ever since they've been making them. The only ones that don't use this system are the ones with a wound rotor, brushes and slip rings. The rectifier/regulator is a simple bridge rectifier, mated with a Zenner diode for a regulator. When the voltage rises above 14.2 volts, the Zenner shunts it to ground. This is really old tech so don't let it mystify you.
 

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You're talking about voltage, but you aren't talking about power, and they're two different things. The rectifier/regulator takes the AC voltage and turns it into an approximate DC power source. The fact that there are fins on the thing is just to dissipate a little heat in the power conversion, because no power conversion happens without a slight loss in the process (consider the fins on transformers.)

The more current draw there is on the alternator, the more energy it takes to turn it. P = V * I. Voltage is a constant 12V. When there's no load, there's no current, because it's an open circuit, and no current * 12V is still zero power. But as you add loads, current goes through those loads, and that current * 12V is additional power. The more loads you add, the more current is drawn, and the more power it takes to turn the alternator. Same as the bicycle and light bulbs scenario above. You're exactly right. It's old tech. :wink:
 

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I think that one of the considerations is the headlight housing. I looked at these last year and I think, sorry I forget where I read it, that you can't use them if you have plastic housing(s). They generate much more heat than the regular H4s or SilverStars.
I would search around, somebody had done a change on a bike and had to add metal sheilding as I remember.
 

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Engine Speed Does Not Determine Load

In an alternator, the engine speed determines FREQUENCY (Hertz, Cycles). It does not determine load. Since the Alternating Current (AC) produced in motorcycle or automobile alternators is rectified to Direct Current (DC) frequency is not a concern so engine RPM is allowed to vary like it does in automotive or motorcycle engines.
Load is determined by Amperage draw from accessories being switched on or off. Turn on an accessory, load demand goes up. Switch something off, load demand goes down.
In the case of an alternator with an AC output engine speed must remain constant to produce 60Hz which is used on the commercial power grid in the United States.
The Frequency or Hertz is determined by number of poles in the alternator and engine RPM. A typical 3 phase back up power diesel generator has four poles. With four poles, the engine speed must be governed to a constant 1800 RPM to maintain 60 Hz. Conversely, this same engine must be governed to a constant 1500 RPM to maintain 50 Hz which is used by our friends in Europe and many other countries. The more poles a generator has the less RPM is needed to maintain 60 cycles. Large diesel power plant engines can have 20 poles. If you use the formula for figuring out frequency you will find this engine will only need to turn 360 RPM's to produce a frequency of 60 Hz. Usually these engines have cylinders large enough for you to stand in. Bottom line speed does not determine load. It can affect output to a limited degree on automotive alternators but will not change the load. The load is only changed by switching electrical accessories on or off. And yes, more electrical load or amperage draw can increase fuel consumption although infinitesimally.

EDIT: Although I am unfamiliar with motorcycle alternators it does make sense that if they are permanent magnet alternators as mentined in posts above, the output would be constant and what isn't used would have to be shunted to ground as there is no way to regulate current to the field. I am just trying to clarify as I thought I saw someone state that that load is affected by engine RPM. Perhaps a post edit took place or I'm crazy. I tend to believe the latter :D .
 

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But.....will they work? Someone mentioned that they would not due to heat problems and the inner workings of the Burgman headlight being plastic. Would be cool if it worked. Might make it easier to see deer at night :wink: . We have a pretty bad problem with them around here.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
http://www1.u-netsurf.ne.jp/~shisuibi/P ... ie/HID.AVI

In searching the various websites, I could now recall one site ,from Japan, where an owner installed a BELLOF unit in his Skywave 650 LX. It included a small Quicktime movie of him turning them on, listed above.

The unit is a BELLOF brand, but it has no specific instructions pages.Many Japan uses seem to have quite a bit of step by step shots of their installations to customize their Skywaves ( But I can only look at the various pictures..I cannot read Japanese :wink: )

I find that many Japanese owners has done quite a few modifications to their Skywaves and I can recall seeing other websites where they have installed HID in their headlamps.But I never wrote them down.Seems they work......Just don't how hard they are to install.

The web is now full of various "plug and play" kits with various HID manufactures of ballasts and bulbs. Most claim to be simple install or un-install with no modifications . Some offer 6 months warranty but one offers a 3 year warranty on all components.
 
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