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Discussion Starter #21
Charbroil - I guess in a round about way, a MAF sensor signal is a way of adjusting for cold air. But based on air density (which changes based on temp) versus the actual temp itself. So, I can see that point. Of course I have not seen but just a couple vehicle's AFRs. But my guess is that most are going to run richer than optimum (which optimum is about 12.7 - 13.2) at WOT. OEMs go richer than that for a margin of safety, and probably in case air flow changes are made to the car, it would likely still remain at a safe AFR. I never thought about it, but backing off just a tad might be optimizing the AFR.

For example, my Honda Rebel 250 on stock carb settings would run as rich as about 9.5:1 at WOT, before it got up to the top rpm, and ran well at those AFRs. Close off the throttle a bit will lean it out a touch with the advantage of a tidge more power maybe. But exactly how much to back it off is not apparent without an AFR gauge.

I would like to see the AFR's on the Burgman. But I doubt I'm ever going to tap the exhaust and find out. Not anything I can do about it … and likely wouldn't touch it anyway … it runs too good as it is. I also have a Lexus LS 460L. I would LOVE to watch and record the AFRs on that, and tune my old Scamp to run as similar AFRs to the Lexus as possible. I'm probably close anyway, the ole Scamper runs very well. It has a busted flexplate on it right now, or I would have Scampered to work today.
 

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The fuel blend is the #1 reason for winter bad gas mileage.
The Burgman 650 has a MAP sensor, a Water Temp sensor, an Air Temp sensor. The computer uses these for injector mapping.
 
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Steve - While most of what you say is factually correct, I personally believe the difference noted in mpg between cold seasons and warm seasons, is indirectly related to temperatures. I personally believe it is a difference in the fuel. Stuff (and I can't recite exactly what "the stuff" is without copying it from some website) is added to fuel for winter time. And that "stuff" reduces the amount of energy available in gasoline. Not significantly, but enough to notice mathematically. It can be noticed in accurate mpg records, and if one took their Burg to the drag strip regularly, it would be noticed in the drag strip data. Might not feel a difference via the hiney gauge, but the drag strip lights could distinguish it.

As for AFR's. I have an old Plymouth Scamp that I was having all kind of trouble starting because I was flooding it. When I replaced the entire exhaust, I decided to add a couple bungs to the exhaust (one on the left and one on the right) and run an AFR gauge so I could tune without guessing. Boy, what a smart move. I found out, I wasn't flooding the car at all. I was starving it. That old LA 360 just loves gas. I have tuned like a son of a gun, I built my own AFR spreadsheet. I'm now an Edelbrock tuning son of a gun. Anywho, the point I'm eventually getting to is, the AFR values varies all over the place dynamically depending on so many factors. No vehicle that I'm aware of is able to hold an AFR at 14.7. And there are circumstances that it is not ideal to hold it at that AFR. Finally, here is the point: Whatever the AFR is during the summer, the winter AFR (all else being equal except in this example the air temps are colder) is not going to be exactly the same. I seriously doubt the Burgman's ECU compensates for temperature. It selects a value from a "map" based on the conditions it does monitor and fuels at said map's data point. The AFR is whatever results from the data selected. The AFR will NOT vary all that much warm season versus cold season (all else being the same except temperature), but it will be slightly different even though the chosen data is the same (again, all else being equal except temp … because I doubt the ECU varies the fuel map based on temp).

You touched a chord with me on AFR's. I love tuning so much, that I tore the exhaust off my brand new Rebel and put a bung in there too. My AFR gauge is currently on the Rebel. I'm tuning that thing like a son of a gun too. I'm tuning the wide open throttle for optimum performance AFR. Because it only has 16 - 18 horsepower. So it can use all the optimizing it can take. I have its WOT condition set well. But now the around town cruising is a bit lean. I love carburetors and AFR gauges! My Scamp runs like a 1972 Camry. Had a shop doing an alignment and when they were done and handed me the keys they said, "boy that old Scamp sure runs good!" And I said, "yup" with a grin like a mule eating briars. Since I have taken ownership of the Scamp, I have improved the power to the rear tires by ~33% while improving the fuel mileage ~13%.

I would slap the AFR gauge on the Burgman, but I don't know how to tune electronic systems. Nor do I think I should. The Burgman seems to run perfectly. It doesn't need more power … could use more mpg maybe.


7milesout
Charbroil - I guess in a round about way, a MAF sensor signal is a way of adjusting for cold air. But based on air density (which changes based on temp) versus the actual temp itself. So, I can see that point. Of course I have not seen but just a couple vehicle's AFRs. But my guess is that most are going to run richer than optimum (which optimum is about 12.7 - 13.2) at WOT. OEMs go richer than that for a margin of safety, and probably in case air flow changes are made to the car, it would likely still remain at a safe AFR. I never thought about it, but backing off just a tad might be optimizing the AFR.

For example, my Honda Rebel 250 on stock carb settings would run as rich as about 9.5:1 at WOT, before it got up to the top rpm, and ran well at those AFRs. Close off the throttle a bit will lean it out a touch with the advantage of a tidge more power maybe. But exactly how much to back it off is not apparent without an AFR gauge.

I would like to see the AFR's on the Burgman. But I doubt I'm ever going to tap the exhaust and find out. Not anything I can do about it … and likely wouldn't touch it anyway … it runs too good as it is. I also have a Lexus LS 460L. I would LOVE to watch and record the AFRs on that, and tune my old Scamp to run as similar AFRs to the Lexus as possible. I'm probably close anyway, the ole Scamper runs very well. It has a busted flexplate on it right now, or I would have Scampered to work today.
I think you can tap into the O2 sensor on the Burgmans exhaust to get a reading. It may not be a wide ban O2.

7mile, check out this, 410 cube 5.9/360 stroker:

410 Cubes.jpg
 
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7Miles. I used to own a 68 slant six valiant, and a 69 340 dart. close early cousins to your scamp. I had that 340 good enough to best some 383’s at the local dragstrip, but eventually I cracked a cylinder,so I picked up a newer 360 like yours and rebuilt it using the big valve 2.02 340 heads. made good power but vibrated bad till i found out the 360 was an automatic dedicated flex plate balance, and my manual flywheel from the 340 didn’t have it! Lesson learned.
 

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......I'm now an Edelbrock tuning son of a gun.
Ahhhh, you V8 guys and your downdrafts. I used to run a pair of Weber 45 DCOE Sidedrafts on a Toyota 20R engine in my rally car days back in the late 70's. We used to tune and balance the 4 barrels of the carbs using a Colortune Plug. I don't think anyone these days has ever heard of one, but in the pre-computer and pre-OBD systems it was a great way to balance multiple carb throats. Especially as each throat fed it's own unique cylinder.
Somehow doing it all with a laptop just doesn't seem as much fun these days.
Cheers!
 

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Steve_YYZ , The Colortune vid was Amazing ! Ingenious and Simple ! I always loved the Toyota 20R. What body style were you running ?
 
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Ran a 1978 Celica Hatchback. Thought you'd like that Colortune concept. Folks had some ingenious ideas back then.
Sweet ! I had a 1978 Corolla SR5 a little brother to the Celica. I got to drive a 78 Celica as a loner while getting some work done to the Corolla .

Were you able to drive to the events or did you have to trailer ? Did you have any sponsors? Did you have a navigator? Any pics and Trophies?

My hometown & local Budweiser Distributor hosted the Sunriser 400 Rally :

 

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Check this one out.....just think if they they had a class for 6th graders to do this ?

 

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I have a ColorTune 14mm X 3/4 for Dodge cars somewhere in my tool boxes. It was good to see what each cylinders fire looked like. We then would epoxy "TURTLES" sideways in the intake runners to cause turblance on a fast port or inline to direct airflow to a slow port. This and a "SUN" Rastor scope.
 
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Ran a 1978 Celica Hatchback. Thought you'd like that Colortune concept. Folks had some ingenious ideas back then.
Ahh, the 5/8 clone of a 1969 Mustang GT, the 1978 Celica.

1969-mustang-boss-429-NCI-1.jpg 1978_toyota_celica-pic-20712-1600x1200.jpeg
 

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I always laugh when I read these "fuel mileage" threads, and there sure seem to be a lot of them. Do people do nothing else but sit around wondering how far their Burgman will go, or how miraculous their mileage figures are?

...
It matters when you're trying to make distance on the superslab. This determines where and when the fuel and lunch stops will be.
And this talk of 200+ miles (320 km per tank? Well in real-world riding I've NEVER seen such a figure or even been close. Best I've ever done is around 260 km (161 miles) and that was riding real slow trying to stretch my fuel to the next stop. I was down to 80 kph (50 mph) at most because when you're riding the roads north of Lake Superior, it's a long way to walk if you don't make the next fuel stop.
I've done more than 200 miles on a tank, but I'd been riding mountain twisties at relatively low speeds (30-45 MPH) for most of it, and IIRC the dashboard claimed 50 MPG so I did the math and figured it'd work out. Still, I cut it closer than I would have liked. (This was more than 10 years ago, though, so the details are fuzzy.)

On the open highway (70-80 MPH, 78-88 indicated) I assume 40 MPG for planning purposes, but usually it's more like 42-46 depending on wind and speed. I think I saw 38 MPG once, running nearly flat-out into a strong headwind for an hour. I'm running a box-stock '05 650 non-exec, no sidecases or top box. Surprisingly, I noticed an increase in MPG with a square duffle bag (1'x1'x2', roughly) lengthwise on the back seat and extending about even with the back of the bike -- but it made the bike handle like it was top-heavy so I'd save it for long trips.
So much depends on the bike itself and the roads. I've got the big Givi windscreen, side cases, topcase, and weigh around 230 lbs. And even with the same configuration, so much depends on speed.

With my big side cases (33 liter) and running a true 135 kph (84 mph) I can burn thru a whole tank in 150-160 km (94-100 miles), but same configuration slowed down to 90 kph (56 mph) and I jump up to around 200 - 225 km (125-140 miles), but that's about it for range.
All else equal, drag goes up as the square of airspeed.
So for me, and because of the touring type riding I like to do, I always figure my fuel stops at around 170-200 kilimeters apart (105-124 miles) which generally is about 2 hours riding, or time for a coffee and bladder break.
I figure the bike has a 2-hour range (150+ miles) on the freeway, which is fine because it's got a 2-hour seat. Works out well enough...
All I really care about is smiles per mile!
And that's the point! :)
 

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I should have said a Baby Cuda .....a Vin# BS??????
P.S. Rumors of a 2021 Baracuda coming ?

But you are absolutely right again....Wiki:

“The liftback was often called the "Japanese Mustang" or the "Mustang Celica" because of the styling similarities to the Ford Mustangpony car, including C-pillar louvers and the vertical bar tail lights that are a signature Mustang styling cue and pay overall homages to the muscle-car era.[6]
 

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I always laugh when I read these "fuel mileage" threads, and there sure seem to be a lot of them. Do people do nothing else but sit around wondering how far their Burgman will go, or how miraculous their mileage figures are?

The number of kilometres (miles) per bar of a fuel gauge is so inconsistent as to be useless. It's clear the first "bar" will always be more because there not only is fuel in the tank, but whatever volume of fuel is also contained in the filler tube. That's why the first bar takes a long time to go off, but the others are quicker.

And this talk of 200+ miles (320 km per tank? Well in real-world riding I've NEVER seen such a figure or even been close. Best I've ever done is around 260 km (161 miles) and that was riding real slow trying to stretch my fuel to the next stop. I was down to 80 kph (50 mph) at most because when you're riding the roads north of Lake Superior, it's a long way to walk if you don't make the next fuel stop.

So much depends on the bike itself and the roads. I've got the big Givi windscreen, side cases, topcase, and weigh around 230 lbs. And even with the same configuration, so much depends on speed.

With my big side cases (33 liter) and running a true 135 kph (84 mph) I can burn thru a whole tank in 150-160 km (94-100 miles), but same configuration slowed down to 90 kph (56 mph) and I jump up to around 200 - 225 km (125-140 miles), but that's about it for range.

So for me, and because of the touring type riding I like to do, I always figure my fuel stops at around 170-200 kilimeters apart (105-124 miles) which generally is about 2 hours riding, or time for a coffee and bladder break.

All I really care about is smiles per mile!
I thought I would mention this since I just took two refresher trips on the Burgman. I bought it just over a year ago, rode it for a short time, started falling out of love, and then a friend rode up on a little Rebel. I then got a Rebel too and rode it. The Rebel is a fun little bike. Anywho - I'm now riding them both and will get rid of whichever I throw a leg over the least over the next few months to a year.

This past weekend I rode to my dad's house. While riding, I notated (in my mind while riding, and recorded in my smartphone both ways when I stopped) the trip meter miles when a bar would disappear. I stared at the speedometer a lot, because I was doing my best to hold it as close to 72 mph (79 on the speedometer) as I could. Because I wanted an apples-to-apples comparison of the Burgman mpg compared to the Rebel mpg at the same speed. 72 mph is the Rebel's top speed (gps verified, ~75 mph on its speedometer).

These ranges are the average of the trip there and the trip back. Using no ethanol 87 octane, topping off as I was leaving, and topping off again at a gas station near mine and my dad's house.

5 bars: From full to 46 miles
4 bars: 46 miles range (from 46 to 92 miles on the trip meter)
3 bars: 28 miles range (from 92 to 120 miles on the trip meter)
2 bars: 22 miles range (from 120 to 142 miles on the trip meter)
1 bar, fuel emblem blinking): I only went as high as 155 miles and refilled, due to the logistics of the trip (meaning, I was where I was going). So I can't say the range on 1 bar.

Maybe some time I'll have the opportunity to go on down to 0 bars, in order to get a range on 1 bar.

Based on my fill amounts, I "theoretically" would have run out of gas somewhere between 203 and 206 miles. Of course this is all 72 mph. If a person wants to ride farther than ~205 miles on one tank of fuel, they're going to have to go slower.

FWIW


7milesout
Charbroil - I guess in a round about way, a MAF sensor signal is a way of adjusting for cold air. But based on air density (which changes based on temp) versus the actual temp itself. So, I can see that point. Of course I have not seen but just a couple vehicle's AFRs. But my guess is that most are going to run richer than optimum (which optimum is about 12.7 - 13.2) at WOT. OEMs go richer than that for a margin of safety, and probably in case air flow changes are made to the car, it would likely still remain at a safe AFR. I never thought about it, but backing off just a tad might be optimizing the AFR.

For example, my Honda Rebel 250 on stock carb settings would run as rich as about 9.5:1 at WOT, before it got up to the top rpm, and ran well at those AFRs. Close off the throttle a bit will lean it out a touch with the advantage of a tidge more power maybe. But exactly how much to back it off is not apparent without an AFR gauge.

I would like to see the AFR's on the Burgman. But I doubt I'm ever going to tap the exhaust and find out. Not anything I can do about it … and likely wouldn't touch it anyway … it runs too good as it is. I also have a Lexus LS 460L. I would LOVE to watch and record the AFRs on that, and tune my old Scamp to run as similar AFRs to the Lexus as possible. I'm probably close anyway, the ole Scamper runs very well. It has a busted flexplate on it right now, or I would have Scampered to work today.

"The misnomer is that 93 octane will make a Burgman run better. A few members will swear that it does. But you can not get them to do some real back to back testing. "

If anything, 2007 Executive seems to run better on 87 octane fuel. I have tried all sort of gas in in over the years and tried a few tanks of corn free 93 octane but for sure, my buttometer never noticed the difference and miles driven per tank was never any different. I agree that the half a buck or so difference when filling up is no big deal but if the bike runs no better and goes no further then why bother?
 

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"The misnomer is that 93 octane will make a Burgman run better. A few members will swear that it does. But you can not get them to do some real back to back testing. "

If anything, 2007 Executive seems to run better on 87 octane fuel. I have tried all sort of gas in in over the years and tried a few tanks of corn free 93 octane but for sure, my buttometer never noticed the difference and miles driven per tank was never any different. I agree that the half a buck or so difference when filling up is no big deal but if the bike runs no better and goes no further then why bother?
The only time I use the "high-octane" is my final tank of the season before I put the fuel stabilizer into it for the winter. By buying the high-test, I can get fuel that is 100% gas with no ethanol added. For winter storage, that is what I want in it. But that's the only reason IMHO.

But I will say that it runs better!!! WHY? Because that tank of gas is what's in the bike in the Spring, and the 1st ride of the season/year is ALWAYS BETTER!!!! LOL!!! 🤣😇
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Round here, I have access to 87 octane E0 and 90 octane E0. The substance used for that testing was 87 octane E0. The 90 octane E0 is at a different brand of gas station and more expensiver. :D But is what I run in El Scampo.

I had gassed El Burgo up a couple times on the 87 octane E0 before the test trip, to get as little ethanol leftover in the tank as possible. The next time I do this ride to my dad's house (maybe this weekend), I will do it on an 87 octane tank polluted with ethanol (E10 I think). Theoretically it should have about 3% less energy so the mpg should be a bit lower (maybe 1.5 mpg lower). I'll run 72 mph again. But that's getting frustrating to do 72 mph and have a Harley guy with an attitude ride by thinking I'm running max speed. I'm dying to smoke a Harley.


7milesout
 

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I thought I would mention this since I just took two refresher trips on the Burgman. I bought it just over a year ago, rode it for a short time, started falling out of love, and then a friend rode up on a little Rebel. I then got a Rebel too and rode it. The Rebel is a fun little bike. Anywho - I'm now riding them both and will get rid of whichever I throw a leg over the least over the next few months to a year.

This past weekend I rode to my dad's house. While riding, I notated (in my mind while riding, and recorded in my smartphone both ways when I stopped) the trip meter miles when a bar would disappear. I stared at the speedometer a lot, because I was doing my best to hold it as close to 72 mph (79 on the speedometer) as I could. Because I wanted an apples-to-apples comparison of the Burgman mpg compared to the Rebel mpg at the same speed. 72 mph is the Rebel's top speed (gps verified, ~75 mph on its speedometer).

These ranges are the average of the trip there and the trip back. Using no ethanol 87 octane, topping off as I was leaving, and topping off again at a gas station near mine and my dad's house.

5 bars: From full to 46 miles
4 bars: 46 miles range (from 46 to 92 miles on the trip meter)
3 bars: 28 miles range (from 92 to 120 miles on the trip meter)
2 bars: 22 miles range (from 120 to 142 miles on the trip meter)
1 bar, fuel emblem blinking): I only went as high as 155 miles and refilled, due to the logistics of the trip (meaning, I was where I was going). So I can't say the range on 1 bar.

Maybe some time I'll have the opportunity to go on down to 0 bars, in order to get a range on 1 bar.

Based on my fill amounts, I "theoretically" would have run out of gas somewhere between 203 and 206 miles. Of course this is all 72 mph. If a person wants to ride farther than ~205 miles on one tank of fuel, they're going to have to go slower.

FWIW


7milesout
Keeping it around 65mph gives you over 200miles. The most I've ever taken my 09' 650 was 205miles and I think I refilled 3.8gallons. my cruising speed was between 58-69mph using a throttle lock and that was with my 56liter givi top case with tire pressure up front at 33psi and rear tire at 44psi. Usually I only get that sort of range using any grade (non-ethanol) fuel. I use an app to track my fillups on all my vehicles so I can see my consistencies.

I seem to get mostly get between 48-52mpg and between 43-54miles per bar depending on riding speed and humidity. When humidity is high, the natural acceleration of combustion will only get me 38-43miles per bar depending on my riding speed and terrain
 

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