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Volvo wrote up an excellent unbiased report on their switch to battery cars. Good read here:


For those without the patience to read it, the gist of their study is: battery car manufacturing requires more carbon “pollution “ than an equivalent gasoline car.
Depending on the electric generation source ( 3 chosen) the battery car break-even point where its total carbon footprint begins to be less than the gasoline car is at 49,000, 77,000 and 110,000kms.
 

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Hydro electric is not clean. Building one is very bad for the ecology. Maintaining one is too. Washington state is about 80% Hydro electric.

1. Water held back slows or stops fish migrations like salmon. The Killer Whales depend on good salmon runs. Humans rely on good salmon runs

2. Water held back in resovores allow sun to warm the water over miles of surface area millions the size of the river. This warm water is killing the fish eggs. This warm water also flows to the colder sea changing it temperature too.
 

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hasn't washington been removing hydro dams in recent years?
Some but a HUGE battle between the power companies, BIA and Tribes lands the dams are on. While we need power, I stand on the tribes side on this one.
 

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Hydro electric is not clean...
In generation/ecology jargon they’d say it’s not always “green” for those types of reasons - except for ROR or PSH which doesn’t have the same impact.

But it is “clean“ and “renewable”.
They use “clean” to mean no CO2, NOx in the process, green for minimal ecological impact.

No product is truly green except the one that wasn’t made.
 

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That is kind of the point -
The video lumps coal in with cleaner natural gas as a single category to suggest coal use is more significant than it is.
It mentions wind and solar, but leaves out hydro etc to diminish cleaner sources.


The video talks of “polluting” but bait-and-switches to “oil use” as it’s parameter to fudge the figure.
(power stations are more efficient than engines, etc)

It claims 60k miles to reach emissions parity, where does that come from? It was between 10k to 15k on the last 2 projects I had contact with.
Busy weekend... Apologies to OP... Both have their use cases, neither will likely go away any time soon. Whether we are talking slot cars or pub transport to trucks, trains, touring motorcycles etc... Synthetic fuels are promising but even that will have tradeoffs and it's still a hydrocarbon and the green nutters will attack that as they did nuclear. 😠 It's almost like they are used for some end, not what they 'claim'.

The media are masters of 'lies of omission'. For example, showing only coal energy production and 'renewable' energy production, leaving out everything else. 😒 The vid at 2:31. 😌Whether they do this out of stupidity, 'possible', AND/OR on purpose to manipulate, profit... You decide. A lot of people will suffer this cold snap from this. A lot of people may not know cold kills far more people then heat. Having lived in freezing cold and Tropical/Desert heat, I'll take tropical/desert every time. If you watch the video, it's not that long, they refer to the study VW carried out, 60k. I haven't reviewed VW's study but that's something that can be reviewed later but it's a reminder that nothing is '100%' green like these nutters vandalizing historical art work or blocking traffic, while using their iphones to virtue signal online.
The video also does a good job reminding people of this:
Also, the idea that displacing or moving something you don't want somewhere else won't affect you... This is probably one of the most dangerous 'games' that politicians and media play on the public in general. Energy, War, you may not like the messenger/message but ignore the message and YOU and or loved ones WILL PAY dearly.
Another important point in the Vid was, EVs will probably not make a big difference, even if MANDATED... Just like the jab. Just like most MANDATES, they will probably do more HARM then GOOD.

Another point, some may not have any idea how much mining is required for this resource or that.. You should visit the USA and see it in person, not a video... It's a lot safer to see a surface mining site here than in other countries.. Not completely safe though.. Oh BTW, you can try panning for gold while your at it. For real! A lot of panning for just a bit but you can get lucky and you get keep it! Minus (uncle)s surgar's cut... 😁 You will learn to appreciate ICEs a lot.

I'd hate to see that stuff like this get censored, someone previously posted that this would get shut down before 39, isn't a good sign.

On a funny/sad note, if you're not patient, search for 'tip' on page. The consequences of the bell curve, it's real. The same as theoretical limits, whether solar power or nuclear.. Or affirmative actions... 🤣
He was elected...

On a more serious note, what do you do about the tails of the curve, both the lower and upper? For real?
The Vid, 2:35, "she's an engineer" As one educated as an engineer, I apologize for her.. 😔 As Texans would say, all hat no cattle.
 

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I work in vehicle/aircraft science and research.(almost 40 yrs)

I created design tools used by electric and ICE industry designers to investigate and reduce their emissions and increase energy efficiency (amongst other things). Done real world testing, R&D and developed virtual prototyping, etc. etc.

Yes, I own an EV built as my personal test bed away from the industry.
I worked as a janitor on the death star for 500 years. They told me to 'learn to code' after it got blowed up 💥.. 🤣

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist... :)

I'm suitably impressed but your content/posts, not your cv/resume. I had to evaluate a few and was shocked at how unreliable they were after signing my name to them and working with them. And having to cut them. I remember you from my previous post where you pointed out your hat goggles.

My experience is mainly in solving problems. My first set of tools involved using wrenches and other tools that were about my height or longer in length and a 1/4 of my weight, sometimes more than my weight. This was outside in all climates and weather extremes. I also had to sign my name off on things where people could die if I f'd up, this started at 18. Before that I worked fast food, Mcdonalds 😁 hey, no one died eating my food either. :whistle:

Since then, my tools have shrunk a lot and now I work with software to fix/solve all kinds of problems. I have even created quite a few tools of my own and a few games for my relatives.

I also own EV(s) Use to build and race them, 1/10 scale :D to slot cars. I did design a few grown up ones in EE school but.. Ancient history for me now.

I'd prob hire the guy who sends me the death star resume.. 🤣
 

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hasn't washington been removing hydro dams in recent years?
It’s interesting politics, that DC and some states classifies what is, obviously , renewable hydropower, as not-renewable, on the basis of fish patterns disrupting., and other river changes, Even though it’s a totally, logically renewable source of energy due to evaporation/rain, they don’t want to encourage power companies to be able to use it for “renewable “ portfolio minimums.
Conversely, trash burning for electricity, and trash landfill, gas capture/burning IS allowed as a part of renewable energy source.
Guess they figure we’ll have an endless supply of “renewable “ trash to burn. 😂😂😁
Go figure…
 

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It’s interesting politics, that DC and some states classifies what is, obviously , renewable hydropower, as not-renewable...
You will see this in other countries too.
Or rather its seen as different “tiers” or classes, not non-renewable (subtle difference... unti you get into legal/money etc)

RPS and similar systems are intended to encourage new investment in and creation of new infrastructure.
Some renewables are less desirable than others (because less green ) so encouraging them isn’t a great idea- so they go in the sub-set of renewable but not green.

There are often exceptions to this exception in the small print for small ROR (run of river) wave tech etc that don’t impact the ecosystem to such a dramatic extent
 

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It’s interesting politics, that DC and some states classifies what is, obviously , renewable hydropower, as not-renewable, on the basis of fish patterns disrupting., and other river changes, Even though it’s a totally, logically renewable source of energy due to evaporation/rain, they don’t want to encourage power companies to be able to use it for “renewable “ portfolio minimums.
Conversely, trash burning for electricity, and trash landfill, gas capture/burning IS allowed as a part of renewable energy source.
Guess they figure we’ll have an endless supply of “renewable “ trash to burn. 😂😂😁
Go figure…
Yeah, politics RUINS everything.. Your EDUCATION/energy/health/military/foreign policy etc... You don't want this guy, the 1 linked to above in my previous post in charge of ANYTHING... Sweet Jesus! My apologies for doing this but this elected official, his stupidity is ASTOUNDING! Is my description, unfair? or insufficient 🤦‍♂️🤲🤦‍♀️?


These people are everywhere! God help us if they get elected / placed, and you know they do. 😱 Otherwise, no one would care?

Political Video removed

Unfortunately, they have been creeping into everything the last few decades including health, sports and video games... 🤬 They have been screwing with nutrition for decades resulting in a lot of health problems. They will probably want amnesty for that too. 🤦‍♂️🤲🤦‍♀️

Admin Edit. Sorry but political bashing has been banned on this whole forum.
 

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Please refrain from making posts with bashing Political statements, past, present and future.

We are in very trying times and many are upset or going to be upset in the next day or two.

This political bashing can not be allowed in a Motorscooter forum that has nothing to do with ether political party.
 

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One thing that should be noted: When “renewables “ are statistically compared to coal, or another source, as commonly done lately, it is an intentional, somewhat disingenuous statistical comparison, meant to make the common folk believe it is a larger proportion than it really is. Coal for example, is a single type of fossil fuel. “Renewables”, on the other hand, lumps wood burning, hydro dams, wind, solar, refuse, and yes, even landfill gas, as a big group and statistically compares it to just coal. Obviously a less misleading statistical comparison, would be between the 2 groups, that being renewables and all fossil fuels, which includes natural gas, oil, coal,. Etc, but it would show renewables as a much smaller contributor, that it is right now.
Not really, no.
They are categorised by emissions level. Renewables are similar (non) emitters, gas and coal are not,
Also gas is a “bridge” source and coal isn’t.
So it isn’t fair or useful to group them together.

I think most “common folk“ can see that as soon as they start looking at it
 

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Volvo wrote up an excellent unbiased report on their switch to battery cars. Good read here:


For those without the patience to read it, the gist of their study is: battery car manufacturing requires more carbon “pollution “ than an equivalent gasoline car.
Depending on the electric generation source ( 3 chosen) the battery car break-even point where its total carbon footprint begins to be less than the gasoline car is at 49,000, 77,000 and 110,000kms.
That isn’t quite right - maybe you haven’t come across LCA and LCI reports before?
We do these for each specific vehicle, not “a switch to battery cars”, it’s not that type of report.

Unbiased? Not if it is claimed to represent changeover to EVs or ignores its limitations.
You are correct that some types and amounts of batteries create more pollution during manufacture/disposal.
However, converting an ICE SUV to Li-ion like this one is at the high end as I said earlier, other vehicles break even at 10-15k miles.
Or you can remove the issue entirely and go with fewer batteries/different chemistry and have less pollution than manufacturing the ICE.

Plus:
Do you trust published mpg figures?
That matters when LCA figures are based on them.
WhatCar said the Volvo C40 ”official“ mpg is 22% off even if you drive carefully and stick to speed limits, Fuelly says users average is worse again.

Etc.etc.
 

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Not really, no.
They are categorised by emissions level. Renewables are similar (non) emitters, gas and coal are not,
Also gas is a “bridge” source and coal isn’t.
So it isn’t fair or useful to group them together.

I think most “common folk“ can see that as soon as they start looking at it
Yes really yes.
What the heck are you even trying to argue here?
Looks like you’re devolving into a red herring here.

Your own words:
“Renewables are similar (non) emitters, gas and coal are not,”

“gas and coal are not,” Your words. That’s right. They are not in the renewable group. They are in the fossil fuel group “ aka… non- renewable

“Fossil fuels include coal, petroleum, natural gas, oil shales, bitumens, tar sands, and heavy oils.”

A logical person would understand that comparing renewables to non- renewables, is an apple to apple comparison. Comparing just one component of either group alone to the entire other group is obviously an apples to oranges comparison, and is a statistical play.
Where shall we find public energy source data for example, showing just wind power percentage vs all fossil fuels? You won’t of course, because that wouldn’t send the general public, the intended positive looking renewable statistic.
 

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That isn’t quite right - maybe you haven’t come across LCA and LCI reports before?
We do these for each specific vehicle, not “a switch to battery cars”, it’s not that type of report.

Unbiased? Not if it is claimed to represent changeover to EVs or ignores its limitations.
You are correct that some types and amounts of batteries create more pollution during manufacture/disposal.
However, converting an ICE SUV to Li-ion like this one is at the high end as I said earlier, other vehicles break even at 10-15k miles.
Or you can remove the issue entirely and go with fewer batteries/different chemistry and have less pollution than manufacturing the ICE.

Plus:
Do you trust published mpg figures?
That matters when LCA figures are based on them.
WhatCar said the Volvo C40 ”official“ mpg is 22% off even if you drive carefully and stick to speed limits, Fuelly says users average is worse again.

Etc.etc.
Show me your own in-depth, unbiased , statistically, perfect, including no mpg discrepancies, ICE to EV production report that’s just so much better than this Volvo report.

🤔

Still waiting…


Guess I’ll continue to favor the information in this professional report over what a guy I don’t know, on the internet, says.
 

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Your own words:
“Renewables are similar (non) emitters, gas and coal are not,”

“gas and coal are not,” Your words. That’s right. They are not in the renewable group. They are in the fossil fuel group “ aka… non- renewable
Renewables have similar emissions to each other
Gas and coal are not similar to each other (Coal emits roughly twice the CO2)
The gas industry insist on the distinction as much as anybody. It’s a thing in energy literature.
 

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Renewables have similar emissions to each other
Gas and coal are not similar to each other (Coal emits roughly twice the CO2)
The gas industry insist on the distinction as much as anybody. It’s a thing in energy literature.
There you go with your red herring again.
Power generators have 2 energy sources….Renewable, and non-renewable. These 2 groups include ALL sources. Really simple.

Your attempts to argue what I posted the other day, by introducing groupings of your choice ( by CO2 amount) is just silly.
What’s next…. Wind and Solar aren’t similar because, wind turbines emit roughly twice the noise pollution than solar panels, therefore they’re not the same and therefore not renewables???

Man , you’re making me laugh this morning
 

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Show me your own in-depth, unbiased , statistically, perfect, including no mpg discrepancies, ICE to EV production report that’s just so much better than this Volvo report.
Non are perfect, better or worse. The C40 study reflects the C40 with a BEP of roughly 48k for US.
But only that car. Which others have you looked at?

Look up something like the VW e-Up LCA, from memory that was around 14-15k.
The LCA still has the same limitations
 

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Please refrain from making posts with bashing Political statements, past, present and future.

We are in very trying times and many are upset or going to be upset in the next day or two.

This political bashing can not be allowed in a Motorscooter forum that has nothing to do with ether political party.
Sorry about that, It wasn't meant to bash politics specifically.. I whole heartedly believe you can find people like that in all politics everywhere on the globe and not just in politics. I just wanted to illustrate the 'stupid' power that can exist. Had I not seen the vid myself, I woulda thought it was B.S. No grown up is that stupid, I was wrong, will be wrong again probably too..

If anyone can top that 'level', please share it for the benefit of humanity 😂.. Laughing at it helps me cope with it. It may help others too.

If you watch the vid, the female asian ford engineer, maybe a grad from MIT?, made that statement... Not stupid but definitely not familiar with the whole ecosystem. I wouldn't laugh, but chuckle, head shake.. :sneaky: She probably never been to a mining op / powerplant either..
 

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I only saw the young engineer speak her opinion for 4 seconds starting at 2:41. Did she interview more? You know what they say about opinions. Is she a high ranking EV engineering group manager, or just one of hundreds of engineers? Maybe she’s a materials engineer, or an electrical engineer with 1 year of experience? I didn’t see her qualifications, and/or the reason SHE was the chosen Ford voice for the video.
 
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