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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I recently watched an episode of the hit British motoring TV program Top Gear that my step son sent me a link to , It was about synthetic fuel.

Synthetic fuel at present is expensive to produce and the at pump cost is something like a staggering £20 per litre I believe …. BUT….It is completely carbon neutral in both its production and emissions, in fact the F1 series is going to run all their cars on it from 2024 so I have been told ?

The beauty of it is that any petrol ICE from any era can run on it.
Porche have already said that they have a plant in Germany producing it and it will be available at all their franchises.

I don’t buy all this EV hype I’m afraid, it is a bunch of unelected Multi Billionaires pulling the strings of our bent and corrupt politicians who have huge financial interests in getting EVs into the market and the entire World running on them.

The environmental impact of both mining the rare Earth materials required for the manufacture of the batteries and the hideous problem of disposal is frightening and not forgetting the huge amount of electricity generation required to charge them, in fact at the moment in the UK it is more expensive to fully charge an EV at a charge point than it is to fill your car up with fuel.

I don’t know about the super bowl but here in the UK they struggle with everyone putting the kettle on during half time of a major football final, just imagine when everyone gets home from work and plugs their car in ! And say in a family of four where they all drive, who gets to charge their car first ?

If all the car manufacturers got behind synthetic fuel and abandoned this EV hype , the price would become cheap and we would most definitely get a new Burgman 650 Executive and that is something I would definitely be up for :love:

Link to the Top Gear episode HERE
 

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Sadly, Top Gear lie quite a lot and their “experiments” are scripted, so not experiments at all, and often give misleading information.
They claim “entertainment” rather than “information”

They faked a race with an electric car - it ran out of charge and suddenly stopped. Except that didn‘t happen, petrol cars go from full throttle to stop, electrics fade. People who knew this complained and they admitted it was staged.

They faked a Tesla breakdown, various jealousy and Jeremy Clarkson went to Vietnam to learn to ride motorcycles “for the first time ever” to create an oh so funny situation...except there are other programs filmed 25 yrs earlier where he comfortably rides motorcycles including a Ducati 916 around Grand Prix circuit.

I would’t take anything they say seriously.
 

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For sure, political posturing, and politician’s economic ties, to EV mandates are seriously questionable in most cases. For sure, electric infrastructure is seriously inadequate to handle additional loads required by a worldwide fleet of electric vehicles. This is all a huge subject on its own.

The synthetic fuel part…requiring coal and/or natural gas, and the multitude of different processes styles can produce a less polluting fuel for internal combustion engines, but, it’s still an internal combustion engine, very inefficient <40%, where the majority of energy is wasted heat ( feel your headers :). ). Electric motors are very efficient, and power sources can be efficient, and/or non polluting, so electric power is environmentally superior.

One big problem is that the powers to be, have settled on the concept of battery vehicles, instead of electric vehicles. The concept is not grand enough to try to pull the public away from the idea of a vehicle with its own independent fuel on board, either a gas tank or battery. Trains, subways, some EV buses, model trains, slot cars, etc…all use area distributed power, therefore eliminating the need for individual batteries.

Some day we’ll be there…either overhead power lines, or embedded in streets with vehicle identification for charges… but this is grand, and will take many years to get there.


Yes right now the batteries are environmentally nasty, but no, they don’t use rare earth minerals. Rare earth elements are used in some motors and electronics, but the colbalt, and lithium used in the batteries is not rare. Normal ICE vehicles use rare earth’s also, notably in the catalytic converter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Sadly, Top Gear lie quite a lot and their “experiments” are scripted, so not experiments at all, and often give misleading information.
They claim “entertainment” rather than “information”

They faked a race with an electric car - it ran out of charge and suddenly stopped. Except that didn‘t happen, petrol cars go from full throttle to stop, electrics fade. People who knew this complained and they admitted it was staged.

They faked a Tesla breakdown, various jealousy and Jeremy Clarkson went to Vietnam to learn to ride motorcycles “for the first time ever” to create an oh so funny situation...except there are other programs filmed 25 yrs earlier where he comfortably rides motorcycles including a Ducati 916 around Grand Prix circuit.

I would’t take anything they say seriously.
I agree and Top Gear isn’t my cup of tea either it is a program for entertainment purposes in fact I don’t watch it and especially when it was with motorcycle hating Clarkson at the helm. My post however wasn’t about Top Gear, I just gave a link to a section featured on the program about Synthetic Fuel which being a petrol head interested me.

That dispatches program was interesting, but with Boris ( Pinnocio ) Johnson featuring and him himself banning ICE sales from 2035 I questioned the Governments real reasons why they want to ban them ? A work colleague of a friend of mine got rid of his EV because in real World driving, ie winter time, lights and heaters on , playing the radio and windscreen wipers going , distance anxiety became a real issue and the drain on the battery was significantly noticeable. Private sales of Electric Cars are still very poor in the UK, the vast majority are company cars whom of course get good tax breaks to buy them so those figures are very misleading.

That emissions test was also very interesting especially stating diesels we’re a lot cleaner than hybrids on cold start ups , I own an adblue diesel car which is exceptionally economical on fuel ( 70 miles to the gallon ) does around 450 miles on a full tank and takes about 3 minutes to fully fuel. They can ( and do ) produce bio diesel in large quantities and modern diesel cars running with all the latest technology in emission reductions run almost if not 100% clean.

Also used values will be very poor that Nissan being a prime example, I equate it to an iphone, buy the latest model today but in 5 years time the battery will be next to useless and the used sale value next to nothing, they too have unserviceable batteries, but perhaps there lies the answer ? Universal standard fittings and easily swapped out battery packs like with Electric Scooters in Italy.

I have to say I am still not a fan or advocate of battery operated vehicles and would dearly love to see a massive drive towards Synthetic Fuel.
 

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We had a member on here long ago from GB that has a small VW Polo 1,000cc Turbo Diesel that was getting over 110 (I)MPG running a 20% mix of Bio-Diesel. He had done a lot of 'Tweeking' on it. Things like heating the Bio-Diesel up to over 80C right before injection and water temp at around [email protected] PSI

May have been Snave (Simon Evans)
 

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I’m a bit short of time right now so I haven‘t viewed the videos but:

Synthetic fuel is much better than fossil fuel but the claim that it is carbon neutral is a bit iffy.
Yes the carbon in the fuel just goes round and round but it has to be processed. That involves deconstruction (mashing it up and breaking down the lignin portion, pyrolysis/gasification -rapid heating to 700°C (1290°F) and then “upgrading” which converts it to a useable blend stock to start making into fuel.
The storage, transport and dispensing (staffing/heating/pumping).
That is a lot of extra energy, usually electricity that needs to be included in the figures.
Not to mention that drips, leaks an evaporation are even worse than burning the fuel in an engine.

Then there is engine oil, oil filter, coolant, air filter production, spark plug, packaging thereof and disposal of used engine oil - my electric has none of those.

On charging :
I have only ever done one full charge - when I purposely ran the batteries to a stop to see what distance I could get. 99.99% of charges were just topping up/partial (1-2 hours) - so the “charge time” is misleading unless you are using max range constantly.

A simple timer allowed me to charge a car and a bike overnight.

Batteries:
Lithium can be recycled. It is a more complex process but will become standard practice once enough batteries start coming to the end of their life.
A lot of criticism of battery life is based on old tech, newer tech lasts a long time. Snave, mentioned above once pointed out that batteries would never achieve 100k miles - but they had already done that when he said it ( a taxi company in Blackpool not far from me was doing with older generation Nissans 10 yrs ago and the battery guarantee was 100
 

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Continued:
The aviation industry is very interested in bio fuels because of the weight penalty of batteries.
Various companies already use it including big airlines on long haul.

Traditional oil companies promote it in favour of electric because they get to keep you dependent on their infrastructure and buying the peripheral.
 

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Continued:
The aviation industry is very interested in bio fuels because of the weight penalty of batteries.
Various companies already use it including big airlines on long haul.

Traditional oil companies promote it in favour of electric because they get to keep you dependent on their infrastructure and buying the peripheral.
I don't believe the benefits and cost advantages of that preexisting infrastructure can be over-stressed here in the US. The US's interstate/highway system of roads is huge. It's also over 70+ years aged. Most of the country has ample numbers of petrol stations and facilities already in place.
Our electric grid is even older than our roads and is ill equipped to handle our present load requirements... much less the additional demand of EVs or a similar technology.
I don't have the knowledge to make reasonable recommendations... But I'd prefer engineers make those decisions instead of lobbyists and politicians.
I hate the thoughts of a whole generation's struggle to "re-invent the wheel".... when a tire-of-a-different-color would work.
 

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Let’s face it. We all love our internal combustion engines. Nothing else like the roar of controlled gaseous explosions from an enclosed area. Like fireworks. Unfortunately, reciprocating motion with linear volume adjustments isn’t a low energy loss method. Electric motors being pure rotary, with efforts to minimize surface windage, with low loss conductors, make it superior..
I’m guessing, well past our lifetimes, society will have given up the last ICE in favor of battery vehicles .. Once society accepts electrification, comes the next stage…battery independence. This will be where true environment advancement comes. You’ll gain environmental pluses by eliminating batteries, but your vehicle will be restricted to predestined pathways of electrification.
 

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I could adapt to walking out to the garage, getting in my vehicle, close the door and push the button.

The 'Mag-Lift' system suspends the car and guides it out to the street where it zippers into the flow of traffic.

No one rushing to block me, no tailgating, no honking.

It follows the set path to where I set on the map, I get out and it self parks.

When done I push the call button and it unparks and pulls up for me to get in and goes to the next point.

BORING!!!
 
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Let’s face it. We all love our internal combustion engines. Nothing else like the roar of controlled gaseous explosions from an enclosed area. Like fireworks. Unfortunately, reciprocating motion with linear volume adjustments isn’t a low energy loss method. Electric motors being pure rotary, with efforts to minimize surface windage, with low loss conductors, make it superior..
I’m guessing, well past our lifetimes, society will have given up the last ICE in favor of battery vehicles .. Once society accepts electrification, comes the next stage…battery independence. This will be where true environment advancement comes. You’ll gain environmental pluses by eliminating batteries, but your vehicle will be restricted to predestined pathways of electrification.
I could adapt to walking out to the garage, getting in my vehicle, close the door and push the button.

The 'Mag-Lift' system suspends the car and guides it out to the street where it zippers into the flow of traffic.

No one rushing to block me, no tailgating, no honking.

It follows the set path to where I set on the map, I get out and it self parks.

When done I push the call button and it unparks and pulls up for me to get in and goes to the next point.

BORING!!!
yup....ref Tim Wilson Jetpack. (didn't link as the lyrics are NSFW...or Gen Dis section)
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Lets face it people who have an EV supplied by their company aren’t going to complain too much about their car. I too would have anything for free , I’ve even had Covid twice.

Private owners however I have found, are very vociferous in the defence of their expensive purchase but they make up a tiny fraction of overall private vehicle purchases here in the UK and lets not forget the environmental cost of all the other components in and are on the car it’s just not about emissions and its drive plant.

Would I ever consider owning an EV ? Well yes I have to as over here it is being forced on us so there is no choice although I’m likely to be well gone before it’s the norm , but as I previously said I am not a fan or advocate of them however when a battery lasts for say ten years, is reasonably priced to change, can easily cover a 300 mile range and takes just a few minutes to charge then I would be listening.

Going back to post #4 by Charbroil who mentions distributed power , wasn’t that the concept of Nikola Tesla , free energy from the ground ? Perhaps the company who hijacked his name should move towards developing his brilliant idea.
For me though my car is my A to B mode of transport but my Burgman is my fun machine and that can only be driven by an ICE 😈
 

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I think MikeyM turns food into gas all the time.
He just needs to figure out how to collect it and store it! :eek:

I could adapt to walking out to the garage, getting in my vehicle, close the door and push the button.

The 'Mag-Lift' system suspends the car and guides it out to the street where it zippers into the flow of traffic.

No one rushing to block me, no tailgating, no honking.

It follows the set path to where I set on the map, I get out and it self parks.

When done I push the call button and it unparks and pulls up for me to get in and goes to the next point.

BORING!!!
I can see all this eventually happening but also instead of the vehicle self parking it folds up into a briefcase mode and you just carry it into the office with you.

Oh, wait, that was a cartoon that demonstrated future tech! ;)
 
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On distribution of power -
There are some interesting leading edge technologies that might do away with batteries and traditional charging concepts.

Super-capacitors take less than a minute to fully charge. At the moment they are only capable of short journeys, but that was true of lithium batteries only a little while ago. There is an ongoing experiment with buses using them. Every time they pull up at a bus stop to pick up passengers they get topped up. If super-capacitors can be developed to a 300 mile range it will change everything.

Batteries can be made with 10 or more times the capacity we now have. The problem is they can’t be mass produced.
Vapour deposition technology allows material to be created in molecule layers at a time, allowing very high density storage but the technique is still on its infancy. Plus, if your battery/capacitor is also your frame/chassis - your weight problems reduce enormously which increases range and acceleration still further.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
On distribution of power -
There are some interesting bleeding edge technologies that might do away with batteries and traditional charging concepts.

Super-capacitors take less than a minute to fully charge. At the moment they are only capable of short journeys, but that was true of lithium batteries only a little while ago. There is an ongoing experiment with buses using them. Every time they pull up at a bust stop to pick up passengers they get topped up. If super-capacitors can be developed to a 300 mile range it will change everything.

Batteries can be made with 10 or more times the capacity we now have. The problem is they can’t be mass produced.
Vapour deposition technology allows material to be created in molecule layers at a time, allowing very high density storage but the technique is still on its infancy. Plus, if your battery/capacitor is also your frame/chassis - your weight problems reduce enormously which increases range and acceleration still further.
And not forgetting the Holy Grail …Nuclear fusion.
That would change absolutely everything.
 
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