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Discussion Starter #1
Early Model CVT Question

I noticed that the CVT (entire unit) for the 2003 K3 / K4 has a different part number .

My question is , is the only difference the primary adapter bolt in all of these models right up to the 2012 ?

I checked several years and the primary adapter appears to be the same from the K5 on .

So bottom line if some one were to find a very low mile 2003 what could they do to possibly prevent an early CVT problem , change the primary bolt ?

???? TheReaper!
 

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As near as I can tell the only difference between the 03/04 CVT and the 05+ models until you get up to the 2012 when they changed the primary pulley is the primary pulley adapter. The part number for the complete unit is different because of the different adapter.

You can't just replace the 03/04 adapter with the one from the later model because they also changed the crankshaft drive gear that the adapter meshes with to fit the new adapter. What you can do is go to the Polish adapter that some guys came up with. It gives you more strength without having to split the engine cases to replace the crankshaft drive gear.

Nether of the adapter changes will attack the other problem that often leads to problems in the CVT. That is failure of the bearing on the primary input shaft (part # 14 on most fiche diagrams). I don't think anyone has come up with a definitive reason why these sometimes fail or how to prevent the failure. Personally I think it is a quality control issue either with the bearings or the lube inside them. That is the only reason I can come up with for some to fail at fairly low mileage and others to never fail. I just helped a fellow pull the CVT in a 2011 and that bearing failed at 19,000 miles. The bearing in my 2007 is still running fine at 112,000+ miles.
 

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Early Model CVT Question

I noticed that the CVT (entire unit) for the 2003 K3 / K4 has a different part number .

My question is , is the only difference the primary adapter bolt in all of these models right up to the 2012 ?

I checked several years and the primary adapter appears to be the same from the K5 on .

So bottom line if some one were to find a very low mile 2003 what could they do to possibly prevent an early CVT problem , change the primary bolt ?

???? TheReaper!
In short, no. In 2004 Suzuki redesigned the primary puller gear with smaller internal splines. So they probably had to change the primary adapter. From the research that I have done, cvt probems were caused by bearing failure and not the primary adapter. That is the contention of the debate on the problem. The primary adapter will rattle and make a dieseling noise,only when idling. Now, did the primary adapter cause the bearing to fail or was it a bad bearing to begin with? From what I have read the cvt failures were on the machines built in Dec. or before 2002. There is an adapter made by a guy in Poland which is supposed to address this problem.You can see the installation video on Utube. I have bought one and am still debating in my mind weather I will install it, after studying the cvt diagrams.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
OK lets say that I have a 2003 K3 / K4 with a blown CVT , can I take a CVT out of a K5 or later to replace it ?

And why wouldn't you install the Polish adapter ? Seams like a good thing to do at least on the surface ?

TheReaper
 

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I don't think so,because, I am not sure ,but the k5 has 1 ecm and K3 and K4 have 2. One for the engine and one for the cvt. Suzuki changed to 1 ecm but, I am not sure of the year. I think it was 2005. As far as the Polish adapter, I maybe over thinking this but, I cant help but thinking it cause eccessive wear on the crankshaft bearings buy extending the balance of the crankshaft too far out side the engine case.Have you seen the Polish adapter? Quite long and heavy, I doubt that it is balanced. It probably is not an issue it is me not wanting to take things apart.
 

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Yes you should be able to use the 05+ just by using the correct adapter to mesh with the engine gear. I say should because I have never tried it but just looking at the part numbers on the fiche it should work.

If I owned an 03/04 and was doing anything with the CVT I would replace the adapter with the Polish style adapter.

I will have to disagree a little with what Gappy posted because the 03/04 has an issue with the splines on the primary pulley shaft failing that the later models do not have. From everything I can see the cause for that failure is the adapter not the bearing. Along with lessening the rattling sound that is what using the Polish adapter supposedly addresses.
 

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I don't think so,because, I am not sure ,but the k5 has 1 ecm and K3 and K4 have 2. One for the engine and one for the cvt. Suzuki changed to 1 ecm but, I am not sure of the year. I think it was 2005. As far as the Polish adapter, I maybe over thinking this but, I cant help but thinking it cause eccessive wear on the crankshaft bearings buy extending the balance of the crankshaft too far out side the engine case.Have you seen the Polish adapter? Quite long and heavy, I doubt that it is balanced. It probably is not an issue it is me not wanting to take things apart.
The one or two ECM is not as issue. Either will control the CVT. All they are doing is reading the input from the sensors and sending a signal to the control motor. The sensors and the control motor are the same across the years.

I can't see how the Polish adapter would cause a problem. It is doing pretty much exactly what the later model adapter is doing. It spreads the load from just one side of the gear to both sides. The only difference is that it still meshes the smaller diameter pulley shaft to the larger diameter engine gear on the CVT side. On the later model the engine gear is sized to fit directly on the primary spline. The later model adapter just engages the splines on the other side of the gear which is what the extra length of the Polish adapter does.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Yes you should be able to use the 05+ just by using the correct adapter to mesh with the engine gear. I say should because I have never tried it but just looking at the part numbers on the fiche it should work.

If I owned an 03/04 and was doing anything with the CVT I would replace the adapter with the Polish style adapter.

I will have to disagree a little with what Gappy posted because the 03/04 has an issue with the splines on the primary pulley shaft failing that the later models do not have. From everything I can see the cause for that failure is the adapter not the bearing. Along with lessening the rattling sound that is what using the Polish adapter supposedly addresses.
OK so the 05 on CVT would do better in the 03 than the original , correct ?

TheReaper!
 

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OK lets say that I have a 2003 K3 / K4 with a blown CVT , can I take a CVT out of a K5 or later to replace it ?

And why wouldn't you install the Polish adapter ? Seams like a good thing to do at least on the surface ?

TheReaper
Did you buy that 03 650 that was on Craigs List in Illinois for $500.00?
 

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The one or two ECM is not as issue. Either will control the CVT. All they are doing is reading the input from the sensors and sending a signal to the control motor. The sensors and the control motor are the same across the years.

I can't see how the Polish adapter would cause a problem. It is doing pretty much exactly what the later model adapter is doing. It spreads the load from just one side of the gear to both sides. The only difference is that it still meshes the smaller diameter pulley shaft to the larger diameter engine gear on the CVT side. On the later model the engine gear is sized to fit directly on the primary spline. The later model adapter just engages the splines on the other side of the gear which is what the extra length of the Polish adapter does.
Ok, makes a sound argument to me. I will probably install it.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Did you buy that 03 650 that was on Craigs List in Illinois for $500.00?

NO , didn't know there was one . The one I'm going to possibly look at is local supposedly pristine with 3000 miles on it .

TheReaper!
 

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Discussion Starter #12
If I owned an 03/04 and was doing anything with the CVT I would replace the adapter with the Polish style adapter.

QUOTE]

Right , if the CVT were not blown . But once it's a goner it would be better to replace it with a later model . I know most of you guys rebuild the originals , but for me it would be quicker and cheaper to do the quick method , and just replace the entire unit with a slightly used unit .

TheReaper!
 

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NO , didn't know there was one . The one I'm going to possibly look at is local supposedly pristine with 3000 miles on it .

TheReaper!
I would not be afraid of it. Put the Polish adapter in it so you can sleep at night and enjoy it. Hope you can get it for a good price.
 

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OK so the 05 on CVT would do better in the 03 than the original , correct ?

TheReaper!

It would do the same as the 02-04.

Ok, the CVT's are the same size, input and out put shafts. The 02-04 adapter only ingage the engines splines about 3/4 of the splines or less. That is the cause of the primary adapter noise and failure. The way I think, Suzuki should have kept the 02-04 size and went with a better "Polish" style adapter from the get go. But nope, they made the 05 up engine side splines smaller.

In 05 and up, as said above, the engine side of the splines were made smaller so there is NOT an adapter on the CVT's input shaft, that input shaft fits into the engines splines directly with even less spline overlap. Then they added an outer adapter that slides in from the left side of the engine and has a longer bolt to clamp them tight. This was a bandade fix that IMHO was ridiculous.

So yes a 02 CVT will fit an 11 and vice-vera using the correct adapter for the engine side splines.

In this picture you can see how short the splines overlap. The 05 input shaft is just as long so from where the adapters inside splines start to the end is much shorter overall.
Primary 3.jpg

12 of 18.jpg

This picture shows the inside size of the input shaft of all 02-11 CVT's See how small it is?
24mm.jpg

This is the size of the engine splines of the 02-04 only. Suzuki should have kept this size and added the "Polish" style adapter.
36mm.jpg
 

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OK so the 05 on CVT would do better in the 03 than the original , correct ?

TheReaper!
No, the CVTs are the same. The difference is the adapter. If you install an 08 CVT in an 03 using the OEM 03/04 adapter you end up with the same thing as you started with. And you would have to us the OEM 03/04 adapter or the Polish adapter unless you want to take the engine apart and change the drive gear to the later model drive gear.

The only advantage to a later model would be if you went to the 2012 and up that has the primary pulley with the longer stopper bolt. However that primary pulley will fit in the 03/04 CVT so you could just change out the pulley in the 03/04 CVT and have the same thing as an 2012 CVT. You would still be contending with the adapter issue though unless you also change out the engine drive gear.

It's the year model of the drive gear in the engine not the year model of the CVT that dictates what adapter you have to use. This is the gear I am talking about and it fits inside the engine. Notice that the 05 part number is different. If you look at the later models they all us the 05 part number.

http://www.partshark.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=91123&category=Scooters&make=SUZUKI&year=2003&fveh=2071
 

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Discussion Starter #16
It would do the same as the 02-04.

Ok, the CVT's are the same size, input and out put shafts. The 02-04 adapter only ingage the engines splines about 3/4 of the splines or less. That is the cause of the primary adapter noise and failure. The way I think, Suzuki should have kept the 02-04 size and went with a better "Polish" style adapter from the get go. But nope, they made the 05 up engine side splines smaller.

In 05 and up, as said above, the engine side of the splines were made smaller so there is NOT an adapter on the CVT's input shaft, that input shaft fits into the engines splines directly with even less spline overlap. Then they added an outer adapter that slides in from the left side of the engine and has a longer bolt to clamp them tight. This was a bandade fix that IMHO was ridiculous.

So yes a 02 CVT will fit an 11 and vice-vera using the correct adapter for the engine side splines.

OK so if I were to replace the 03 CVYTwith an 08 I would just pull the
adapter off the 03 and put it on the 08 . Correct ?

TheReaper!
 

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It would do the same as the 02-04.

Ok, the CVT's are the same size, input and out put shafts. The 02-04 adapter only ingage the engines splines about 3/4 of the splines or less. That is the cause of the primary adapter noise and failure. The way I think, Suzuki should have kept the 02-04 size and went with a better "Polish" style adapter from the get go. But nope, they made the 05 up engine side splines smaller.

In 05 and up, as said above, the engine side of the splines were made smaller so there is NOT an adapter on the CVT's input shaft, that input shaft fits into the engines splines directly with even less spline overlap. Then they added an outer adapter that slides in from the left side of the engine and has a longer bolt to clamp them tight. This was a bandade fix that IMHO was ridiculous.

So yes a 02 CVT will fit an 11 and vice-vera using the correct adapter for the engine side splines.

In this picture you can see how short the splines overlap. The 05 input shaft is just as long so from where the adapters inside splines start to the end is much shorter overall.
View attachment 30714

View attachment 30690

This picture shows the inside size of the input shaft of all 02-11 CVT's See how small it is?
View attachment 30698

This is the size of the engine splines of the 02-04 only. Suzuki should have kept this size and added the "Polish" style adapter.
View attachment 30706
When looking at overlapping designs of the K4 and K5 I wasn't sure if the primary drive gear was direct to the engine output shaft. Am I correct?
 

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OK so if I were to replace the 03 CVYTwith an 08 I would just pull the
adapter off the 03 and put it on the 08 . Correct ?

TheReaper!
Yes. I added pictures above.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
OK so if some one bought one like I'm supposed to look at this week with 3000 miles on it , just install a Polish adapter and call it a day ?

TheReaper!
 

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When looking at overlapping designs of the K4 and K5 I wasn't sure if the primary drive gear was direct to the engine output shaft. Am I correct?
Not sure what you mean by direct to the engine output shaft. Look at the gear in this fiche http://www.partshark.com/fiche_secti...2003&fveh=2071

The teeth around the outside of the gear mesh with a gear pressed on the end of the crankshaft. The teeth on the inside fit to the primary pulley shaft and/or adapter depending on the year model.

As the pictures Dave posted show the inside of the drive gear is bored larger than the primary pulley shaft on the 03/04 model. The adapter is splined on the inside to fit the primary pulley shaft and on the outside to fit the inside of the drive gear. You bolt the adapter to the CVT and then bolt the CVT to the engine.

On the 05 models the inside of the drive gear is bored to the same size as the primary shaft so that the splines mesh directly with the drive gear splines. The adapter slides in from the outside after you have the CVT in place and bolted to the engine. It not only engages the left side of the drive gear splines but it locks the CVT to the drive gear. I think that also helps strengthen the whole setup which the Polish adapter would not do. So contrary to Dave's thoughts I think the Suzuki solution is better than the Polish adapter solution.
 
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