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Discussion Starter #1
When you are in the right lane and you turn right into a driveway that has a lip is it ok for your front tire to hit the lip at less than a 90 degree angle?

When you are turning into traffic from a stop coming out of a driveway that has a lip do you need to roll your front tire over the lip before you begin your turn?

Bob
 

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When you are in the right lane and you turn right into a driveway that has a lip is it ok for your front tire to hit the lip at less than a 90 degree angle?
yes its ok. Depending on the lip size , the larger the lip the more perpindicular to it would be safer.






When you are turning into traffic from a stop coming out of a driveway that has a lip do you need to roll your front tire over the lip before you begin your turn?
No you dont. Since there is nothing to catch the tire when coming off the lip this is a much safer scenario then going up the lip.
 

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Complacency breeds Pain

Bob, it's generally true that the more perpendicular your approach to the "lip" the less possibility there will of destabilizing your scooter. When I had just a few hundred miles on my 400 and was getting pretty confident, I pulled up to my son's driveway almost parallel to the curb to drop off my wife. Just about the time I stopped, we rolled over the lip and the burger fell over into the street and threw us off. My legs are short as well as weak from a spinal cord injury years ago, so I just couldn't hold it up. That was the first scratch I put on the 400.

Last week I got another lesson in humility at the "lip." I came out of a steep driveway (downhill) and had to stop for passing traffic. The driveway is in the middle of fairly tight curve that goes steeply to the right. When I started up again, I had to turn right sharply going downhill and avoid going across the street into oncoming traffic. At that slow speed, there wasn't enough gyroscopic motion to keep the bike upright in the turn and it started to fall over to the right. Since my right leg couldn't reach the ground, this caused me to try to hold it up with the right handlebar. That caused the throttle to turn inward and race the engine and the bike took off fishtailing with me hanging on for dear life until I hit the pavement! Big time strawberries on my left side and badly bruised ankle, and huge injury to my pride and dignity. This time the plastic is really bunged up and will probably cost a few hundred bucks to replace.

Lessons learned: Be very careful making low speed turns from a start. The burger has a rather large turning radius, and if you try to make sharp turns at low speed, you may not have enough gyroscopic motion to keep you right-side up. The throttle thing caught me completely by surprise. In retrospect, with all the power the burger has, it should be no surprise that it can do considerable damage in a similar situation.

For instance, if I had been in a parking garage coming down a ramp, a similar scenario could've developed, and I would've taken out a car or pedestrian.

And of course, wearing protective gear makes a difference. I'll fess up and admit I wasn't wearing my jacket...too hot and humid here in Hawaii. Very few riders here ever put on long sleeves, much less a riding jacket, but I'm about to close the barn door now that the horses have gotten out. Had I been wearing my usual boots, it wouldn't have made a difference to my ankle, but the jacket would've saved a little discomfort I've been living with for a week.

Good luck to you. IMHO, getting hurt once in awhile is inevitable, but the ride is worth it. OK, you safety engineers will beg to differ, as you will point out, every accident, by definition, is avoidable. Stupid acts beget trouble.
 

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Re: Complacency breeds Pain

Chickenman said:
Lessons learned: Be very careful making low speed turns from a start. The burger has a rather large turning radius, and if you try to make sharp turns at low speed, you may not have enough gyroscopic motion to keep you right-side up.
When making a turn from a stop, turn the front wheel in the direction of your turn while you are sitting there and KEEP IT TURNED as you pull out and go thru the turn. It takes some practice because, instinctively, you want to straighten the wheel as you start off and then turn it into your lane.
It is a smoother and safer method for making the turn from a stop. In most cases, you don't have to make as sharp a turn (less lean) because you eliminate that distance you use as you start off in a straight line first and then have to turn the bike into the lane (greater lean) to complete the turn.
Find a vacant parking lot and practice starting off from a start with your front wheel turned and keeping it turned until the turn is completed. It is awkward at first (you'll want to straighten that wheel) but keep at it. It works! :D
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Stormsteed said:
BobG said:
When you are in the right lane and you turn right into a driveway that has a lip is it ok for your front tire to hit the lip at less than a 90 degree angle?

When you are turning into traffic from a stop coming out of a driveway that has a lip do you need to roll your front tire over the lip before you begin your turn?

Bob
I'm sorry, but I don't know what this "lip" is that you're all talking about. Can you clarify?
A low curb...maybe 2 inches high.
Bob
 

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This is an even bigger deal with railroad tracks, especially when they are wet.
 

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Stormsteed wrote
I'm sorry, but I don't know what this "lip" is that you're all talking about. Can you clarify?
The "LIP" a generic name for any raised straight edge on a road, a low curb, or drive way- railroad lines- a steel plate covering street work - a 2x4 that fell off someones truck-a brake in the tarmac..
Any edge that could "Trap" your front wheel stopping it from being able to turn.

check out
http://www.msgroup.org/DISCUSS.asp
Number 108
 

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The curb lip(also some small dust & pebbles) is what thru my dad down the first time on the 650 when tring to pull into my aunts driveway. His leg got caught under the scooter as he tried to catch himself and spranged his ankle.
 

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Bob,

This is my method:

I always look ahead when I have to make a right turn.
I try to stop as far back from the intersection as possible and toward the left side of the lane.
By stoppng further back it allows you time to accelerate then go into an easy curve as opposed to having to make a sharp curve from a dead stop.
Even when I don't have to stop for the turn I still start the turn more to the left side of the lane.
Sometimes I use the throttle and rear brake at the same time so that I have power but at a low speed.

I am 5'3" and riding the 650 so I understand your situation very well

Janine :)
 

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I pretty much agree with all the posts except the one saying to have your wheel turned before starting to move.

I especially agree that going up against a lip (like into a driveway) is more of a problem then going down over a lip. Hitting a raised section at too slight an angle can trip you in a hurry.

On tip if you have to approach at an angle is to do so very slowly, then turn the wheel 90 degrees into the lip just long enough to get the front wheel up on it, then turn at the angle you need to travel at again. The bike only needs to roll a few inches for the front wheel to get over the lip before you can safely angle again. The rear tire isn't as much of a problem, becasue a lip will try to pull the handlebars out of your grip when the front wheel hits, but the rear will either ride over it or drag along it...dragging isn't good, but it's less dangerous than having the front wheel wrenched out of your grip. (If the rear wheel doesn't make it over the lip, turning into the curb again briefly will usually do the trick.)

Now that that's said, don't worry about it too much. Take it slow and easy, and use common sense, and you won't have any problems. Most curbs aren't that bad. If you see one that looks bad, and you have any doubt about the ability of you or the bike to handle any it, then don't do it. Better to walk a block than to get an ambulance ride.

Going out of a driveway across a lip I do as Janine does. If exiting to the right I start from the left of the driveway and leave at an angle so I can accellerate quickly up to traffic pace while staying in the right lane. By the time I hit the lip, gyroscopic forces are sufficient to keep me upright unless the drop is something only Evil Knievel would attempt.

Trying to exit straight out at 90 degrees and then turn would run a risk of either going too slow and falling, or too fast and crossing into the second lane. (If you're going to the right from the far left of a wide driveway -- like at a shopping center or bank -- watch for cars behind you that may try to pass on your right. Don't pull out in front of them, they may not see you.)

I'm glad to see this thread resurrected, as this is an important safety concern, especially for newer riders.
 

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On a related nore; one of my more embarassing moments was when I was exitting a parking lot in Northbend, Oregon last summer. The driveway sloped down into a gutter, then leveled out.

There were bushes blocking my view, so I pulled forward a bit and then stopped. Unfortunately, the way the driveway was shaped, my back wheel was up on the slope, my front wheel was on the level spot, and may feet were over what was now a very long reach. Even with my 37 inch inseam I couldn't reach the ground, and with a car coming at me I couldn't zoom out. So I did the only thing I could do -- I said, "Oh @#%&!" as I fell over.

Only minor scratches to the Burgman, and none to me (the step-through frame allowed me to "step out" and remain on my feet), but I was sure embarassed. I don't know if anyone saw me, and I don't know anyone there anyway, so I'll get over it eventually.
 

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Re: Complacency breeds Pain

Chickenman said:
if you try to make sharp turns at low speed, you may not have enough gyroscopic motion to keep you right-side up.
I also experienced the low- (almost no-) speed oops. I was going to make a tight left turn (tighter than 90 degrees) from a slighly uphill road onto a slightly downhill road. I had a passenger on the back. Unfortunately, when I stopped at the stop sign, I stopped a little too far back and couldn't see around the corner due to bushes. So I started creeping up a bit so that I could see. All of a sudden I noticed that the bike was going over. The passenger and I both stepped off and the Burger went over "thud". Can you say EMBARRASSED? I used the technique taught on MSF to stand it back up (no problem). I checked for damage (one MINOR scratch on the bottom of the left running board -- my wife still claims that she can't see it). I left the passenger behind for a moment to take a quick ride by myself to regain my confidence. Then we loaded up and continued our trip.
 

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Re: Complacency breeds Pain

One issue not addressed in this thread....

What do you do when you are traveling on highway and they are re-surfacing and you have to move from the old surface to the new higher surface (uneven lanes)? This usually occurs at highway speeds.

Suggestions?
 

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Re: Complacency breeds Pain

Ken OBSC said:
What do you do when you are traveling on highway and they are re-surfacing and you have to move from the old surface to the new higher surface (uneven lanes)? This usually occurs at highway speeds. Suggestions?
If I'm going from high to low, I just let the bike deal with the drop. If going from low to high, it depends on how ramped the transition is and how high. I usually try to slow enough to approach the bump at a good angle (0 degrees is parallel to the bump).

Essentially, use your best judgement. You'll have to cross all sorts of uneven situations in the life of your scooter. With experience you figure it out. The scooter's suspension will handle a good jolt, and keeping a good hold on the handlebars will keep the bike going in the right direction.

Dave B.
 

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Re: Complacency breeds Pain

Ken OBSC said:
One issue not addressed in this thread....

What do you do when you are traveling on highway and they are re-surfacing and you have to move from the old surface to the new higher surface (uneven lanes)? This usually occurs at highway speeds.

Suggestions?
This isn't the same problem because you are going straight when passing over the ridge. The dynamics of going over a ridge when turning are trickier. For a construction bump, I just slow down a bit. No drama.

Railroad tracks can be a third category, because they can cross the road pavement at an angle (and metal can be slippery when wet in addition to the "bump" factor). When there is room, I try to alter my line of travel so that my wheels go over the RR track at a right angle (90°). I also slow down prior to crossing the tracks.
 

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Re: Complacency breeds Pain

pauljo said:
Ken OBSC said:
One issue not addressed in this thread....

What do you do when you are traveling on highway and they are re-surfacing and you have to move from the old surface to the new higher surface (uneven lanes)? This usually occurs at highway speeds.

Suggestions?
This isn't the same problem because you are going straight when passing over the ridge. The dynamics of going over a ridge when turning are trickier. For a construction bump, I just slow down a bit. No drama.
I meant going to the adjoining lane that is higher than the lane you are in.
 

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Then I would use the "railroad track" approach. Try to take the bump at as close to a right angle as you can - particularly with the front wheel. Reduce speed as much as safely possible considering traffic conditions.
 

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Out here in Saudi we don't get any warning of road works speed humps or wash outs so I have learnt to deal with obstacles as they come up and the Burgman has handled them all so far.
I have done a lot of off road riding which has helped me handle bikes in many adverse situations. The main thing is not to panic and don't slow down too much depending on the obstacle wet or dry as the slower you go the longer it takes to clear. A good thing to do is try some trail riding and get used to your bike moving around on different surfaces. Always try and approach any obstacle in an upright position as this will avoid the tyre slipping to the side which it is likely to do if you are leaned over. One thing you can try is standing up on the foot boards as you go over the obstacle, this will keep the scooter light under your weight as you take some of the shock with your legs and is easier to manoeuvre. This may be a problem for some riders with a disability.

Ian
 

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The last part of this thread deals with what are called "Edge Traps" either on highways/roads where repaving is being done between lanes or even at the edge of a paved road where the surface could be higher than the adjacent gutter/curb. My ex got her front wheel caught by one as she tried to make a "shallow" turn into our drive-way. It flipped her real quick. Always try to cross these edge traps at a minimum of 45 degrees. What "flipped" her was she tried to turn the wheel to the right before she had any space away from that edge.

David Hough (of MCNews) has a couple of books in publication, "Proficient Motorcycling" and "More Proficient Motorcycling" available from Amazon or Whitehorse Publications. Though we ride scooters, the same principles apply and well worth the read. Also, his "Street Stratagies" give some good safety tips for all kinds of riding situations.
 
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