Suzuki Burgman USA Forum banner

1 - 20 of 68 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I'm interested to see how the BMW scooters hold up as they are a CVT driving an enclosed chain for locomotion. Also curious about Honda's clutchless transmission in the NC700X. I picked up a 1979 Honda CM400A (automatic) for my wife 5 years ago and she loves it - she hated my Burgman 400 though. She liked the more upright UJM seating position. Seems to be lots of ways to skin an automatic cat.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
18,359 Posts
Burgman 400, Burgman 650, BMW C scooter, Yahama T-Max & Majesty, Aprilia Scaberos and Mana 850, Honda Silverwing, 99% of China clones..... All have a belt drive CVT. Some are out by the Vairator and others, the Burgman 650, are buired inside the bike. But like LeDude said, in the 50,000 - 80,000 miles it takes for a 650's eCVT belt to break, how many other CVT belts, weights/rollors, clutch bells and drive chains did you replace on your other scooter?

"The Sky is falling, the Sky is falling."

We all can be "Chicken Little", I care not to be. !
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
"how many other CVT belts, weights/rollors, clutch bells and drive chains did you replace on your other scooter?"


None, 20,000 on the 400 when I sold it. I changed the plug once and oil changes/tires were about all I did (even original pads). The Hondamatic has a 70s Civic transmission and I changed the drive chain on it once, about $30. I knew one guy with a first gen Burgman 400 who at 47,000 miles (in two years!) had only replaced the plastic trim on the exhaust and under warranty- he was running wide open on the freeway getting to work and the heat kept melting it.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
18,359 Posts
Dave_J said:
Burgman 400, Burgman 650, BMW C scooter, Yahama T-Max & Majesty, Aprilia Scaberos and Mana 850, Honda Silverwing, 99% of China clones..... All have a belt drive CVT. Some are out by the Vairator and others, the Burgman 650, are buired inside the bike. But like LeDude said, in the 50,000 - 80,000 miles it takes for a 650's eCVT belt to break, how many other CVT belts, weights/rollors, clutch bells and drive chains did you replace on your other scooter?

"The Sky is falling, the Sky is falling."

We all can be "Chicken Little", I care not to be. !
Ok can we get someone that has one of those other than Burgman 650 scooters that has made it to 50,000 miles to let us know what they had to replace??? And 80,000 miles????

At 20,000 miles on a AN400, your belt was about done, you just dident have to change it by default of sale.

I am at 27,000 miles on my AN650. Tires, oil, oil filter, air filter and brake pads is all I have put on it. I am tough on brake pads so I change them at 25,000 FGOS(for good of service)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Re: Fruitless but Specious: Fruits at dawn

True, I'm sure that belt was probably nearing it's demise. BUT I could change out that belt myself on the center stand in my garage with tools I already own in a matter of what - an hour or two? I would be ECSTATIC if the 650 had a more conventional drive line. Inline twin power, electric windscreen, holds the road well. I have never touched the plethora of buttons on the left hand side of the bar, don't really need it and could do without the extra expense and complication. Just like Suzuki can build a V-strom on one platform with two different engines, well, I think it could be done.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,936 Posts
The Burgman 650 is just a platform for its electronically controlled CVT and would have no justification to take up road space without it.

The E-CVT knows when you twist the throttle hard and start to downshift while the engine revs pick up.

When the desired peed is reached, the CVT goes to the highest gear instantly, like jumping three gears.

The rubber band mechanical CVT can only react on the increased power output.

I don't like the certainness of carburetors wearing out and plugging up over fuel injection with one injector that I can change out and be done with.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,787 Posts
The "rubberband" CVT, as implemented in the Burgman 400, is both engine speed and torque, and indirectly vehicle speed, reactive. The effective pitch of the drive pulley is controlled by the centrifugal force of the rollers fighting the engine torque, and the driven pulley's active pitch control derived from the torque multiplier.

These mechanical components work in concert with engine speed and torque to achieve lower gearing for acceleration when the transmitted torque is high (torque multiplier licks in forcing the drive pulley to a smaller pitch), and higher gearing as torque falls and engine speed increases at stable cruising speeds (torque multiplier backs off and the rollers force the drive pulley to a larger pitch.

The emphasis these components place on faster acceleration or improved fuel economy can be altered--over a surprisingly wide range--by re-balancing their relationship, changing the roller weight and/or shape, and changing the torque multiplier spring rate.

I.e. the plain ol' rubberband CVT in the 400 has a remarkable elegance in its simplicity. Summarily dismissing it because of its simplicity is not supported by its performance, or that the belt has to be replaced every 20k miles or so. The belt is an $85 US (for my 2003) part that takes less than an hour to change out.

I agree 100% as to the desirability of fuel injection over carburetion, we are fortunate here in the States that both the 400 and 650 Burgmans are fuel injected--as they did not get here officially until 2003...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,936 Posts
What you 400 guys can maybe achieve by fiddling with weights and springs, I can do in 30 seconds by adjusting the SpeedoHealer I have wired only to the CVT-controller.

I did so yesterday when going for a trip with a 180 lbs passenger, I altered the correction factor from +10% to zero.

After dropping him off, I changed it back to +10% again.

Now if Suzuki had either made this adjustment accessible from the handlebar controls or even better by automatic adaption like BMW and other premium cars, it would have been perfect.

The injection vs. carburetor comparison was an analogy., injection being the E-CVT and carburetor the mechanical CVT.

Whenever I see and hear T-Max's on the curvy roads of southern Europe, they are always using the throttle as an on/off switch, and I guess it's because the rudimentary mechanical CVT doesn't work well in the intermediate throttle positions.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,230 Posts
Cliffyk, the CVT in the 400 is a nice piece of engineering and yes you can tailor it to shift the way you want to by changing springs and rollers but once you do you are stuck with that setup. To get another setup you have to tear it down and change rollers and springs to some other profile. The beauty of the ECVT is that you can do that with the punch of a button. It comes from the factory with two different shift profiles already programmed in. Others could be added just by changing the coding much like people alter EFI profiles with power commanders.

The comparison between the carburetor and EFI is an apt one. Carburetors have evolved into very sophisticated pieces of hardware but they are limited. People know how to work with them and they know how to set them up to deliver a specific performance profile but if you want a different profile you have to tear them down and change stuff. However EFI allows for much more variation without having to make physical changes. You can plug in a module that lets you alter the performance profile on the fly by punching a button. The same can be said for the ECVT. They are in their infancy on the development cycle but that will change with time. Already you are seeing more ECVTs installed in autos. As that continues the aftermarket folks will start developing programmers to let folks alter the shifting profiles to suit themselves.

As for maintenance cost. If I take cost for parts for the CVT in my 400 and project them out into time based on the wear rates I have experienced in the first 34,000 miles I can come up with a project cost for 80,000 miles. Doing that I can see I will spend more on parts maintaining it for 80,000 miles than I spent on the parts to change the belt in my 650 at 80,000 miles. There will be a difference in man hour cost though. I will have only spent about 1/2 the man hours changing out the belts and rollers in the 400 multiple times as it took me to change out the belt in the 650 once. Now if Suzuki had made that one stupid piece of frame removable, the 650 would have won that race hands down too. Lets hope they figure that out before they finally come out with an updated version of the 650.
 

·
I'm Retired
Joined
·
9,364 Posts
ErikDK said:
...The E-CVT knows when you twist the throttle hard and start to downshift while the engine revs pick up.

When the desired peed is reached, the CVT goes to the highest gear instantly, like jumping three gears.

The rubber band mechanical CVT can only react on the increased power output...
Cliffyk nailed it IMHO. The same words in the first two lines above can be said for the rubber band CVT. The difference is the ECVT can be felt shifting gears. The rubberband CVT does it smoothly with no fuss or bother. Open the throttle, and the rubberband CVT changes ratios immediately to keep the rpms in the best position for torque and hp. Back off, and the ratios seamlessly settle to a higher gearing. Add to that the effect of DPS weights with the shapes meant to provide faster acceleration when you want it...and a significant drop in highway rpms when you back off...and the effect is like the ECVT's "jumping three gears". Except you don't feel any gear change. It just happens. There are no gears, and as such, there are an infinite combination of ratios to fit the need.

Many members have reported how surprised they were to find their 400 at XX mph. They were going much faster than they intended or it felt like. Part of the reason is that rubberband CVT. There's no fuss, bother or jerking from any shifting...the acceleration just happens.

ErikDK, sorry :) but the last line just doesn't hold up if you've ever looked at the innards of the rubberband CVT and figured out how it works. :)

Chris
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,671 Posts
From what I take away from this is just this. "I would be willing to spend a preset amount of money on a machine I would anticipate breaking down. If I spend $4000 on a lightly used one and it croaks at 60k, that would be better than purchasing it new and biting the entire cost". Though I have had some major bumps with my 400, I have loved my 650 and it has served me well.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,761 Posts
I know I'm going with a traditional CVT next time around. T-Max will probably be my next scooter. The AN650 is only marginally better - but carries the specter of CVT death.

Yamaha always builds a better bike anyway. The fit and finish of a T-max is better than the Burg.

So what if the SECVT is revolutionary. :roll: It's not a mature design. I'll check back in in 10-15 years. Maybe by then Suzi will have designed one that is more accessible as Buffalo and others have suggested.

I put about 10k on a bike per year. I bought a bike that I thought had a 100k belt life at least (lifetime). It seems that is not always true.

I've tore down another AN650 to part it out. It took me 2.5 days. :cwm10:

I'd rather change a belt every 20k on a traditional CVT 10 times before I'd rather tear down another AN650. :evil3:

I dont care if cost is the same, or even more between an AN650 or AN400 over the life of the bike.

I'm not worried about resale, either. I'm riding mine til it dies.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,936 Posts
The E-CVT doesn't jump three gears in 3 or in fact any jerks, it does it seamlessly, I just used that term to describe the change in ratio, that would have you stomping the gear lever like a madman on a conventional bike.

That you have to rev to 4000 rpm to get clean clutch engagement, where we only need 2000 rpm on the 650 is just one of the things that deters me from the mechanical CVT.

But it's OK for me that the commuter scooters 400cc and below use simple technology, I just don't want it in a maxi-scooter.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,296 Posts
This thread has (de)generated into a discussion that is not relevant to the main thrust of the thread. It is also a 650 discussion and whatever the merits or demerits of the 400 it is not relevant to this thread - I will therefore strip this guff out and create a new thread - perhaps titled 'my bike is better than your bike' or 'various specious arguments in comparing apples and oranges and which of them is the better fruit'.

Give me a moment it will take a while.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,973 Posts
NormanB said:
This thread has (de)generated into a discussion that is not relevant to the main thrust of the thread. It is also a 650 discussion and whatever the merits or demerits of the 400 it is not relevant to this thread - I will therefore strip this guff out and create a new thread - perhaps titled 'my bike is better than your bike' or 'various specious arguments in comparing apples and oranges and which of them is the better fruit'.
+1 :)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,296 Posts
Created to hold a thread that had gone down a cul de sac
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,230 Posts
Well since we have this new thread I might as well add to the speciousness :)

Daboo said:
The difference is the ECVT can be felt shifting gears.
Chris, have you ever actually ridden a 650? Unless you operate it in manual mode or shift it between standard auto and power mode you will not feel it shift ratios. It does it as smoothly and seamlessly as the 400 does.

I have no problems we folks not being comfortable with the technology of the ECVT. I have no problems with their decision to stick with a vehicle that uses a conventional CVT. That is their decision to make and I respect it.

What I do have problems with is when they make statements about the ECVT that are not founded in fact to try to justify their positions. Having put more miles than most on this board on the 650; Having taken one apart and looked at the insides; Having owned both a 650 and a 400; Having ridden both the early and late model 400; Having worked on both types of CVT; Having paid the bills to maintain both types; I suspect I understand the advantages and disadvantages of both. I would not hesitate to own either.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,761 Posts
NormanB said:
This thread has (de)generated into a discussion that is not relevant to the main thrust of the thread. It is also a 650 discussion and whatever the merits or demerits of the 400 it is not relevant to this thread - I will therefore strip this guff out and create a new thread - perhaps titled 'my bike is better than your bike' or 'various specious arguments in comparing apples and oranges and which of them is the better fruit'.

Give me a moment it will take a while.
May I suggest a better title for this "guff" - one that would help a user understand what is held within the thread?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,296 Posts
suggest away
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,936 Posts
I don't think the B650 owners who wish for a mechanical CVT realize what they would be giving up.

What I love about it is cruising @ 3000 rpm doing 55mph, whacking the throttle open to pass one or more cars @ 6500rpm and rolling back the throttle as I'm passing the last car @ 4000 rpm.

On a conventional bike with the same power to weight ratio, it would be click-click-(click) down and click-click-(click) up again.

Without direct input from engine load, you can't get the same function from a mechanical CVT.

Van Doorne used manifold vacuum to give a kick-down function in the DAF cars which were pioneers using a CVT tranmission under the name Variomatic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variomatic

High manifold vacuum would give a high gearing and low vacuum as a result of WOT would give a low gearing.
 
1 - 20 of 68 Posts
Top