[jdlappin]

Further to my earlier post about trading my Majesty 400 for a Burgman 650, I have been doing some research and have come accross an issue with the CVT failing on a statistaclly significant number of 650's. I also understand that if this happenes it is so expensive to fix that the Bike basically becomes a throw away.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

David

 

[Buffalo]

Whether the cost is so high that you would consider the bike a throw away depends on if you do the repair work yourself or pay someone to do it. Much of the repair cost is labor. If you are willing and able to do it yourself then it is less expensive than say doing an engine overhaul.

 

[TwoWheelers]

Further to my earlier post about trading my Majesty 400 for a Burgman 650, I have been doing some research and have come accross an issue with the CVT failing on a statistaclly significant number of 650's. I also understand that if this happenes it is so expensive to fix that the Bike basically becomes a throw away.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

David

I'm doing my research and homework just like you concerning the 650 Burgman.

My wife has a 400 Burgman she bought new in 08. Loved it, still has it and still loves it.
Any new bike for her will be a new 400 Burgman someday, some year, if ever needed.

Me: She is trying her best to talk me into a scooter too; So I've been researching Majesty's, Silverwings,
650 Burgman's, Vespa's, and...

I can drive the 400 and 650 Burgman any time I want. Wife has the 400, and our riding friend has 2 650's.
Both are excellent for our riding needs.

Wife says she doesn't want or need a 650. I agree with her.

Maybe I should just join her and buy a 400 Burgman.
It does in fact have more luggage space.

Time will tell.
The envelope please.
Sometime soon in 2013.

 

[jdlappin]

Whether the cost is so high that you would consider the bike a throw away depends on if you do the repair work yourself or pay someone to do it. Much of the repair cost is labor. If you are willing and able to do it yourself then it is less expensive than say doing an engine overhaul.

Well I can tell you that there is no way, no way I am capable of doing any of that work myself. And do not see the reason to spend 10 grand on a Bike only to have to do that kind of 'work' myself. Interesting development as I thought the Burgman 650 Scooter was the crown Jewel of Scooters but it appears not. It sounds more like Micrsoft windows, excellent most of the time but it can fail for no apparent reason at anytime. Thinking I will stick with the Majesty.

 

[jdlappin]

Further to my earlier post about trading my Majesty 400 for a Burgman 650, I have been doing some research and have come accross an issue with the CVT failing on a statistaclly significant number of 650's. I also understand that if this happenes it is so expensive to fix that the Bike basically becomes a throw away.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

David

I'm doing my research and homework just like you concerning the 650 Burgman.

My wife has a 400 Burgman she bought new in 08. Loved it, still has it and still loves it.
Any new bike for her will be a new 400 Burgman someday, some year, if ever needed.

Me: She is trying her best to talk me into a scooter too; So I've been researching Majesty's, Silverwings,
650 Burgman's, Vespa's, and...


I can drive the 400 and 650 Burgman any time I want. Wife has the 400, and our riding friend has 2 650's.
Both are excellent for our riding needs.

Wife says she doesn't want or need a 650. I agree with her.

Maybe I should just join her and buy a 400 Burgman.
It does in fact have more luggage space.

Time will tell.
The envelope please.
Sometime soon in 2013.

Thansk for the input...I can tell you STAY AWAY fromt he Vespa. I had a 250 before the Majesty,a new one and it was in the shop constantly. Of the 4,000 I put in a year, 3,500 of it was going back and forth to the shop. An extemely frustrating exeperience as opposed to the Majesty which is a pleasure to own and drive.

 

[MacDoc]

Well I can tell you that there is no way, no way I am capable of doing any of that work myself. And do not see the reason to spend 10 grand on a Bike only to have to do that kind of 'work' myself. Interesting development as I thought the Burgman 650 Scooter was the crown Jewel of Scooters but it appears not. It sounds more like Micrsoft windows, excellent most of the time but it can fail for no apparent reason at anytime. Thinking I will stick with the Majesty.

wrong but nothing I will say will change a closed mind. :roll:

 

[MacDoc]

define statistically significant.
tell us how far your ride every year?
Tell us how much it costs to change a belt in something else.

55,000 km on two Burgman 650s with zero issue other than changing a battery on the 2005 which iss still going strong under the rider that bought it from me.
30,000 km on the 650 Exec - ZERO - and I mean ZERO issues.....tire change and oil change that's it.

It is the top end of the maxi's tho the unproven GT650 is a decent competitor.

 

[TwoWheelers]

My 2 cents:
I would not hesitate to buy a 650 Burgman if I keep trading frequently, say every 3-4 years for a newer or different model; Or every 25,000 miles or less.
I would hesitate to buy a 650 Burgman if I intended to buy it as a "keeper" or "for ever bike."
Just my 2 cents.

 

[jdlappin]

Well I can tell you that there is no way, no way I am capable of doing any of that work myself. And do not see the reason to spend 10 grand on a Bike only to have to do that kind of 'work' myself. Interesting development as I thought the Burgman 650 Scooter was the crown Jewel of Scooters but it appears not. It sounds more like Micrsoft windows, excellent most of the time but it can fail for no apparent reason at anytime. Thinking I will stick with the Majesty.

wrong but nothing I will say will change a closed mind. :roll:

Not fair, my mind is not closed. I have just heard
Things about the CVT issue that had caused me
Concern and that I do not fully understand.
Telling me that if I am capable I can fix it myself
Is not reassuring. I was not expecting to be
Confronted with this issue as I always thought the
650 is a flawless machine. So I have paused to
Ponder, consider and decide.

 

[NormanB]

Further to my earlier post about trading my Majesty 400 for a Burgman 650, I have been doing some research and have come accross an issue with the CVT failing on a statistaclly significant number of 650's. I also understand that if this happenes it is so expensive to fix that the Bike basically becomes a throw away.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

David

You asked for input so I hope you will appreciate this.

On what basis have you deemed the failure rate to be significant?

What failure rate have you calculated, or what failure data have you accessed?

Are you drawing your own statistical analysis and how significant is it?

Have you any competence in statistical analysis?

Have you any expertise in statistical analysis at all?

BTW you spelled 'statistically' incorrectly. :wink:

Please share your data, it's source and the analysis.

 

[Daboo]

My 2 cents:
I would not hesitate to buy a 650 Burgman if I keep trading frequently, say every 3-4 years for a newer or different model; Or every 25,000 miles or less.
I would hesitate to buy a 650 Burgman if I intended to buy it as a "keeper" or "for ever bike."
Just my 2 cents.

...55,000 km on two Burgman 650s with zero issue other than changing a battery on the 2005 which iss still going strong under the rider that bought it from me.
30,000 km on the 650 Exec - ZERO - and I mean ZERO issues.....tire change and oil change that's it...

So if I calculate correctly, 55,000 km is equal to 34,175 miles. MacDoc...did you have that total km/miles on each bike...or did both bike's mileage add up to that? If you've only got an average of 17,000 miles on each bike that doesn't prove much regarding the CVT question the OP is asking about. But if you have 34,000 miles on each...

Chris

 

[Ernie M]

This subject keeps comming up. I understand the op and have the same worries. Maybe the difference is that I could most likely do the repair myself and have the tools needed to do it also. However, what I don't have is the desire to repair one of these things. My 09 650 has 12k miles and I would trade it for a 400 even and throw in $200 for someone to deliver there trade to me. That's how much I worry. My 1 cents worth, "inflation you know" !

 

[InfernoST]

This subject keeps comming up. I understand the op and have the same worries. Maybe the difference is that I could most likely do the repair myself and have the tools needed to do it also. However, what I don't have is the desire to repair one of these things. My 09 650 has 12k miles and I would trade it for a 400 even and throw in $200 for someone to deliver there trade to me. That's how much I worry. My 1 cents worth, "inflation you know" !

I was worried about the same thing that is why it took me a while to make the leap from my 400 to the 650. I look at it like this, things wear out and or just flat out fail at which point they have to be repaired, something I will take care of myself if it happens. On the other side of the coin there are way more high mileage 650's still on the road than there are with CVT failures, there is less maintenance involved than on the 400, these are the other factors which helped me make my decision. Now that I own a 650 I don't think I will ever be able to go back to the 400. IMO it was definitely worth upgrading and am reminded of it every time I hit the throttle. Good luck with your decision. :thumbup:

Almost forgot, the other important factor was and is the fact that Suzuki had made improvements to the CVT over the years to correct the earlier model years week points which caused the CVT to fail.

 

[MJR]

Further to my earlier post about trading my Majesty 400 for a Burgman 650, I have been doing some research and have come accross an issue with the CVT failing on a statistaclly significant number of 650's. I also understand that if this happenes it is so expensive to fix that the Bike basically becomes a throw away.

Unfortunately we don't have enough information to suggest how common or not this might be. Parts repair cost can vary from about $300 (drive belt) to $1,600 (primary, case half, belt, misc) depending on failure. My '03 with 26K mi is about $800 in parts and the used '06 with 54K mi I bought knowning it had a problem is $1,600. Labor is going to be about the same regardless which internal parts you need. Figure labor of $1,000 more/less if you can't or don't want to do the job.

If a expensive repair is going to happen it's like around or after 50,000 miles so if you don't plan on riding that much you might never have a problem. Also in my experience a failure doesn't come without some kind of warning (either noise or slippage problems).

Almost forgot, the other important factor was and is the fact that Suzuki had made improvements to the CVT over the years to correct the earlier model years week points which caused the CVT to fail.

The only improvements I see related to the dieseling noise and/or adapter/spline wear. Even in it's 2011 upgrades only help with stopper bolt wear which still happens but offers better support for the primary and maybe a longer life.

 

[Daboo]

One of the advantages of a forum is its sharing of information to help support each other when we have problems. One of the disadvantages of a forum is that there is a record of that problem that is around forever. Another advantage of a forum (that we all encourage newbies to do) is being able to search through past threads and posts for information we're interested in. A casual search of the 650 section would give anyone the info they need.

As far as a "statistical" analysis goes, perhaps he found this. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=58701&p=541370#p541370 As it says in the next to last line, I offered...actually sent...the spreadsheet to several 650 owners on this forum, including some who have posted here already. Strange that no one brought it up to him. :shock: So why get testy when a prospective 650 owner asks a legitimate question of owners of the bike he's interested in?

I spent about 6 hours one evening searching through all the old posts to find CVT related failures. The data I gathered is not conclusive. Believe it or not, not everyone who owns a Burgman is a member of BurgmanUSA. Nor do all the people who join, come back to post anything. So the data has lots of holes in it. Lots.

Still here is a general summation of what I found. Note, this does not include the two that javajo mentioned in this thread.

• 2002 — Average mileage = 0K (1 of the 1 entries did not list their mileage.)[/*:m:2e2ob25h]
• 2003 — Average mileage = 18K (4 of the 21 entries did not list their mileage.)[/*:m:2e2ob25h]
• 2004 — Average mileage = 45.4K (1 of the 7 entries did not list their mileage.)[/*:m:2e2ob25h]
• 2005 — Average mileage = 26.6K (9 entries)[/*:m:2e2ob25h]
• 2006 — Average mileage = 40K (9 entries)[/*:m:2e2ob25h]
• 2007 — Average mileage = 37.3K (1 of the 12 entries did not list their mileage.)[/*:m:2e2ob25h]
• 2008 — No entries.[/*:m:2e2ob25h]
• 2009 — Average mileage = 92K [/*:m:2e2ob25h]
• 8 other entries with no mention of the 650's year. Average mileage 26.3K (2 of the 8 did not list their mileage.)[/*:m:2e2ob25h]
• Average mileage over the 68 entries was 30.2K.
  
  NOTE: In many years, there was no entry for the mileage when the part failed. That will have brought the average miles down for that year group.
  [/*:m:2e2ob25h]

Again, there's no way to know how many have failed because there are obviously people that own 650s and don't belong to this forum. And how many total 650s are owned that accumulate even over 10,000 miles? Not that many. I did a search one evening in the Classifieds section, and found that while a lot of members buy their 650 for "touring"...few actually do tour it appears. The average mileage at the time was about 13,000 miles...which would put the owners no where near the average failure point.

FWIW, I am not keeping this spreadsheet up. I offered it to about 5 members of the forum and there was no interest to take it further. But it seems like questions are coming up, so I'll share what I found.

And, please do not kill the messenger...

With no interest from the people I sent it to, the spreadsheet has not been updated further since last spring. There's been several other failures since then that don't show up in the data above.

Chris

 

[roy_ryall]

From the original thread ( viewtopic.php?f=1&t=58701&p=541370#p541370 ), I posted

Chris, I appreciate all your work, but I am not understanding your numbers. One 2002 failed at an average of "0" miles? 2009 average is 92K? There has been 68 failures? Why use the failures that you do not know the mileage on to compute an average? Are you saying they failed at "0" miles?

I would hate to start seeing posts saying the average life of a 650 CVT is 30.2K, but I am sure I will.

Chris, I still think you should recalculate averages using the only the failures that you know the mileage on. Using "0" miles (failed on the showroom floor) for the non-reporting failures is not valid method of calculating the average.

 

[Fatjock]

All I can add to this is that I knew of the CVT failures, and researched on this forum and others what was involved in the repair, likely causes, likely costs, and expected milage before issue.

I purchased a 2011 650 Exec, and used the money I saved on the list price to purchase a five-year extended warranty. I'm very happy with my purchase, I know there is a risk, and I know the risk is very low. So I insured against it!

I would advise not to let fear prevent you from enjoying what you want in life...or force you to compromise. If you want a BUrgman 650, get it, and enjoy it while you can. If you don't want one, don't get one. But prevaricating gets you nowhere.

 

[NormanB]

One of the advantages of a forum is its sharing of information to help support each other when we have problems. One of the disadvantages of a forum is that there is a record of that problem that is around forever. Another advantage of a forum (that we all encourage newbies to do) is being able to search through past threads and posts for information we're interested in. A casual search of the 650 section would give anyone the info they need.
snipped
As far as a "statistical" analysis goes, perhaps he found this. http://www.burgmanusa.com/forums/viewto ... 70#p541370 As it says in the next to last line, I offered...actually sent...the spreadsheet to several 650 owners on this forum, including some who have posted here already. Strange that no one brought it up to him. :shock: So why get testy when a prospective 650 owner asks a legitimate question of owners of the bike he's interested in?

snipped
Chris

It is not getting 'testy', as in an ill mannered sense, but yes testing in a challenging sense - when claims like 'statistically significant' are postulated.

I know you did your best to trawl a limited data set (and very limited by your own admission) and any conclusions drawn from that data set would of course be deeply flawed and certainly not statistically significant. Even if you had received a positive response from all that you sent the spreadsheet to and gathered more data, it would still be limited and insufficient to pronounce significance. To be honest the best data, which would not capture mileage at the failure point, would be from Suzuki in terms of numbers of assemblies and numbers of belts supplied to any specific country, taken alongside total number of registrations. I am surprised Suzuki is not more open with this.

Personally, I find my bicycle to be the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned. It has never suffered mechanical failure and not cost me a cent in 20 years. Mind you I have only covered about 250 miles in that time. Is that statistically significant? :wink:

 

[ErikDK]

It seems to me that a number of the CVT failures occur on high-mileage scooters bought used.

I suspect the sellers were aware that something was going and it was time to sell.

The buyers don't know how an AN650 is supposed to act and sound and ride happily along towards devastation.

 

[MacDoc]

Daboo - stop with the scare tactics on the 650s - you've never owned one and seem flat out committed to that no one else should either. You're a mod - you should know better....this is not the first time you continue to diss 650s.

Your "statistics" are useless garbage meant purely to scare people off buying one of the best rides around. 45 years riding it's the best most reliable bike I've owned and I ride 20,000 km a year. I AM NOT CONCERNED and I own one.

When YOU own one - then put your oar in -otherwise stick to your 400s. Your continual beating on the 650 risk is an insult to 650 owners and very inappropriate for a mod on this board and very misleading in my view to prospective owners.

If you look at the mileage on the 650s for sale they are very low. Riders simply don't do distance. Even if there is a small risk at 60,000 miles or 100,000 km there are extremely few riders that will ever get there including me and I do ride a lot.
The 2005 650 I bought in 2010 had 1900 km on it....in 5 years. I put 20k on in a year and flipped it for a 2009 and the guy I sold it to has 43,000 km on it now with no issues.

Yes I think Suzuki should be open about the statistics but when you compare it to the nightmares from other machines it's vanishingly low and should never deter a potential owner unless the 650 they are considering as 50,000 miles or more on it.
Only then might it be a concern.

•••

A casual search of the 650 section would give anyone the info they need.

a) let the potential buyer search the forum and then talk to 650 owners....not those that don't own
b) a casual search of the forum would show far more issues with 400s - I'm actually shocked at the number I see regularly.