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Discussion Starter #1
I put 120 miles on my Burg 650 today. I was playing around with the manual mode and was wondering if the next generation Burg 650 could be offered with a 7 speed semi-auto (like our manual mode).

Suzuki could evolve the 650 into an 850-900 type cruiser with a 7 speed manual like our manual mode on the handle bar.

This would allow tweaks to the engine and transmission with resulting increase in HP, torque and fuel economy.

Why hasn't the technology of the Burg 650 evolved much over the past 11 years?

Don't get me wrong the 650 is a real nice machine but I am left wondering why can't I cruise at 85 mph with 4,000 RPM? Why doesn't the Burg 650 generate more HP (motor came out in 2003)?

I think there is a bigger market than people realize for a scooter/cruiser with 80 HP, 7 speed semi-auto, good suspension, fairings, windshield, heated seat, etc.

If the Burg 650 were to go up to 600 pounds in weight that wouldn't be issue as long as it got all the upgrades to go with it.
 

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Heh, the Burger King is already just over 600 lbs. We don't call it lardy for nothing. There's enough clutch barges out there already, many made by Suzuki. The existing manual mode is more of a novelty really. More power requires more of everything else, including insurance. I can only imagine the sticker shock on such a scooter. The 2014s are almost $12k here in Canada to begin with. Personally, give me REAL suspension a good seat and a bigger gas tank.
 

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The burg is already at 600lbs +, closer to 625 wet. The 525 lbs number in the manual doesn't include any fluids, battery, etc.

A bigger burg has been discussed. I think there will be one eventually, others don't. As long as they don't increase the weight significantly, I think it would be a winner.

So far as the number of tranny speeds, you must remember they are just computer pre-programmed ratios in the variator, Suzuki could program a Hundred if they liked, seven would be nothing, it's just a tranny mapping thing, like a firmware update.

But most riders never use the manual mode. Most use drive or Power mode. That's all you really need. So mapping in a seventh "gear" is superfluous.

So far as a "real" tranny, the 650 has one and its superior to auto-geared bikes like the NC700 or NM750 or whatever Honda is putting out this week. Some auto makers are using a version of electronically controlled CVT now. I think its in the new Accord and Altima. Its Smoother, more economical and reliable. Why go backwards in technology?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
The burg is already at 600lbs +, closer to 625 wet. The 525 lbs number in the manual doesn't include any fluids, battery, etc.

A bigger burg has been discussed. I think there will be one eventually, others don't. As long as they don't increase the weight significantly, I think it would be a winner.

So far as the number of tranny speeds, you must remember they are just computer pre-programmed ratios in the variator, Suzuki could program a Hundred if they liked, seven would be nothing, it's just a tranny mapping thing, like a firmware update.

But most riders never use the manual mode. Most use drive or Power mode. That's all you really need. So mapping in a seventh "gear" is superfluous.

What if the software could be altered so we could drop the RPM at 85 mph? This would increase fuel efficiency and prolong engine life? I understand the tranny is a CVT and the manual mode is really a gimick but surely suzuki could do something to make the Burg 650 more highway friendly?

Why hasn't the engine been tweaked for more HP over the past 11 years? All the other bikes made by Suzuki have gotten HP increases and many other upgrades.
 

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One option would be an overdrive gear in the final drive. One way you can get more top speed from a CVT scoot is to change the final drive ratio. Why not simply put a second ratio in the rear end? Granted it would add some weight and cost but I am sure for those doing a lot of highway miles it would be a welcome addition.
 

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What if the software could be altered so we could drop the RPM at 85 mph? This would increase fuel efficiency and prolong engine life? I understand the tranny is a CVT and the manual mode is really a gimick but surely suzuki could do something to make the Burg 650 more highway friendly?

Why hasn't the engine been tweaked for more HP over the past 11 years? All the other bikes made by Suzuki have gotten HP increases and many other upgrades.
The 650 isn't highway friendly? I know you don't have a lot of highway time on the 650, but by all reports from magazine reviews, the members of this board and my own experience, the 650 is one of the finest highway bikes available.

But it's still only a 650.

In the world of ultra high speed touring, displacement wins. 1200-1800 cc bikes dominate for that reason. Sure Suzuki could lower the RPMs at high speeds in the 650 with a bigger variator and tranny programming, but a 650 just doesn't have the torque to pull that stunt off.

The one time most riders DO use manual mode is to put and keep the bike in OverDrive. Once "locked" in OD, the bike has very little torque to do any kind of acceleration. It does fine just cruising along at 85 mph. But if you want to pass, downshift to 5th or 4th.

The B650 is a stupendous bike, so much so, that we sometimes think that it can do more than it actually can. As I've pointed out before, it still only has one cc per pound of bike. It makes great use of that displacement with the autotranny; which I think makes it ride more like a 750. But you can't compare it to bikes with two or three times the displacement and a fraction of the weight gain. There are physical limitations which the Suzuki engineers saw best to balance in this relatively smaller bike.
 

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Before anyone jumps on me telling stories of how the 650 runs with, if not beats, the big bikes... I know it can. BUT NOT at low RPM, like Burgmanmaniac has suggested. The big burg is just not gonna run 80 mph at 2500 rpm or whatever the big bikes do. But it doesn't need to. Low RPM does not equate to better or longer lasting engine.

The burg does, to its credit, run extraordinarily smooth, even at its slightly elevated rpm rate. So much so that you can barely notice it other than reading what the tach has to say. And it's designed to run at that rate for a long, long time. It's really just a very optimized engine and tranny. Much more practical than the typical oversized bike for the same duty affair most manufacturers put out.
 

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So far as a "real" tranny, the 650 has one and its superior to auto-geared bikes like the NC700 or NM750 or whatever Honda is putting out this week. Some auto makers are using a version of electronically controlled CVT now. I think its in the new Accord and Altima. Its Smoother, more economical and reliable. Why go backwards in technology?
Mitsubishi has an electronic CVT that surpasses its' 5-speed manual in fuel economy.

You wouldn't want a Burg with 7, 8,11 whatever fixed ratios. I guarantee you if that was the case one day you'd be cursing the Burg because it lacked gear 7.5.
 

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So far as a "real" tranny, the 650 has one and its superior to auto-geared bikes like the NC700 or NM750 or whatever Honda is putting out this week. Some auto makers are using a version of electronically controlled CVT now. I think its in the new Accord and Altima. Its Smoother, more economical and reliable. Why go backwards in technology?
Mitsubishi has an electronic CVT that surpasses its' 5-speed manual in fuel economy.

You wouldn't want a Burg with 7, 8,11 whatever fixed ratios. I guarantee you if that was the case one day you'd be cursing the Burg because it lacked gear 7.5.

And these Burgs are very expensive in Ontario.
 

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Dual-clutch auto boxes work very well in VW and Ford cars, but awfully int the Honda 700 motorcycle.

"Let's see, we have an auto box, we'd better make it shift as little as possible, better stick to third gear for the next half-mile, in case he wants to accelerate"

I nearly gut run down by the car i had just passed, as the Honda engine braked heavily when I turned the throttle back to continue at the same speed, but in a gear or two higher, like the Burgman does.
 

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Honda doesn't do auto-matics...they are yuck. Burgman rocks with the Power button option.
The BMW does okay without it.

I'd just like to see the existing 650 in a bit higher state of tune. 10-20 more ponies is there if Suzuki wants.

The BMW sport gets 60 HP and I can tell you hangs in nicely with a 1300 beemer from a standing start up to 70 mph without a power button.
 

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Liamjs is correct in his thinking. The engine in the 650 is torque limited at higher speeds. In it's highest ratio it cannot pull to the rpm limit of the engine. It will actually go faster in a lower ratio than it will in it's highest ratio. That is why when you are in drive mode the PCM lowers the gear ratio at higher speeds, to multiply the available torque that the engine can produce.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Liamjs is correct in his thinking. The engine in the 650 is torque limited at higher speeds. In it's highest ratio it cannot pull to the rpm limit of the engine. It will actually go faster in a lower ratio than it will in it's highest ratio. That is why when you are in drive mode the PCM lowers the gear ratio at higher speeds, to multiply the available torque that the engine can produce.

Would an extra 10-15 HP lower the RPMs at all? It would be nice to cruise at an indicated 90 mph (81 mph actual) pulling 5,000 RPM.
 

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Would an extra 10-15 HP lower the RPMs at all? It would be nice to cruise at an indicated 90 mph (81 mph actual) pulling 5,000 RPM.
Why the concern about engine RPM? It runs smooth as silk and is designed to run at highway speeds all day for 10s of thousands of miles. You probably have 10 years + before any significant engine wear. I'm just not sure what you are worried about.

My 400 runs at over 8k at 81 MPH actual. I have 41k on her and she's still running strong. I've have abused this poor mechanical beast and have no concerns about her running another 41k.

The Burgmans are built well. trust that the engineers have done their job.
 

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Your trying to turn the 650 into something it is not. It is not designed to be a high torque low speed engine. If you want that buy a large displacement V twin. To produce the power to run at higher road speeds it has to turn more rpm.

Horsepower is a function of two things, rpm and torque. The formula to calculate horsepower is torque times rpm divided by 5252. To increse horsepower you either have to increase torque or you have to increase rpm. The 650 does it by increasing rpm. It is designed to do that and survive.
 

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yup - go buy a nc700 ( yuck )

I'd take a higher redline on the Burgman tho.
 

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A great deal of what I am reading here are things that would make the Burgman 650 a different bike. I am quite happy with my Burgman as it stands. Yes, there are bigger displacement scooters out there now, there are faster scooters out there now but IMHO none that match the Burgman for smoothness. The Burgman is fast enough, it will do over 100 mph. It will outrun almost any of the cruisers in a drag race. It is like the beds in Goldilocks, not too hard, not too soft. Just right.

Doug from Kentucky
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Your trying to turn the 650 into something it is not. It is not designed to be a high torque low speed engine. If you want that buy a large displacement V twin. To produce the power to run at higher road speeds it has to turn more rpm.

Horsepower is a function of two things, rpm and torque. The formula to calculate horsepower is torque times rpm divided by 5252. To increse horsepower you either have to increase torque or you have to increase rpm. The 650 does it by increasing rpm. It is designed to do that and survive.

So an extra 10 HP would show up as higher RPM? Maximum HP would be produced at slightly higher RPM than the current version?

Also, is the Burgman 650 designed to run at 6,000 or even 6500 RPM for hours at a time without varying the RPM?

Thanks.
 
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