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Hmmm.

Welp - I say it's a demographics thing. As has been well put by other ICOBO-ers, and their comments about taking or leaving the opines of motoring journalists plus other slants.

Thanks Doc - I was looking fwd to "installment #2!"

I had a guy on a cbzfxrzwf 600 thingie "proving his muscle" with me at a stop light two days ago. funny thing was was that he missed second gear, and i cruised right by him, in power mode, with a huge, indescribeable grin, i was almost laughing out loud in my full face.

WOOM WOOM! - Cool - but you have to know how to shift! :lol:

He may have smoked me from 10 to 35... but... when i didnt really know he was gonna homp on it... but when he missed that shift and stressed his connecting rods.....omg...emoticons dont get it.

I don't think he had cold "invisable luggage" either! :wink:

5 miles later, after he passed me at warp speed... when i pulled up behind him at a 4 way, me going right, him going straight, onest he knew i was going right (maybe because my blinker was on?) he proceeded to try and get a wheelie across that lil intersection going straight!

Shucks....

Just to show me! Whatta guy eh!? I love ppl like that - heck when I get a show of power anywhere, and at anytime (as long as no one else is involved...) I can dig it! :roll:

Hope that cat lives.
 

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The writer really didn't impress me. He mentioned a "feet forward locked in" riding position with the Burgman. Huh??? You can move your feet all over on the Burgman, but with the two motorcycles your feet are truly locked in to one position. He also seems to need a gas tank between his knees to control a motorcycle. Maybe he doesn't understand how to countersteer. I peg him as a motorcycle rider (not a very proficient one at that) who really didn't want to like the Burgman. And the lawn mower grade gas can sitting under his butt.... I just can't take him too seriously.

That said, he didn't really tear the scooter up that bad in his write-up. If he really understood how to use the ecvt, and could countersteer, he would have been happier with the scooter's performance against the other two bikes.
 

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Yes, Paul, when I read that I too thought the guy had decided long before he got on the Burgman that it was not going to work for him. I found the same attitude in thier preview ride of the Majesty a couple of months ago.
 

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WLB :>) said:
Maybe he doesn't understand how to countersteer.
I'm feeling kind of dumb. What do you mean by 'countersteer'?
Two ways to corner a bike: body weight against the frame/tank/etc. to get it to lean, or turning the front wheel slightly opposite of the direction you want to go by pushing on the "inside" handlebar to induce lean. The latter is one version of counter-steering.

Counter-steering is counter-intuitive, because it seems as though the bike would always go in the direction the front wheel is turned, but at speeds high enough for leaning to be the primary turning force that isn't true. Many riders aren't aware that the handlebar is actually moving opposite to their turn, because the movement is so slight and is usually done unconsciously.

As a "proof" I have new riders that I'm training go straight at about 15MPH and, while consciously trying not to lean the bike just give a slight nudge to either handgrip. It can be very educational. (Just pick a nice, big, deserted parking lot to try it in.)

In normal riding a combination of the two methods is used, and different riders (and the same rider at different times) will vary the amount of each that's used. Once you become aware of the two approaches you can learn to consciously choose the best method for any given conditions.

Interestingly, it is the change in turning methods as speeds increase that makes learning to ride a bicycle so hard for many children. The bike seems to want to go wildly back and forth from where they want it to go.
 

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I developed my counter-steering on a honda 450 (back in '89) in South Lake Tahoe (where the black ice grows). It was VERY educational! Fortunately I never laid it down but for those who are NOT familiar with countersteering, use GREAT caution on any road surface that is not 'solid' (gravel, moisture, pine needles, etc., etc., etc.) or you will be for a bugger of an eye-opener.
 

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I think you always have been, and always will be, Counter steering, even on a bicycle. It just has never been identified, or discussed. It's just automatic, and never really practiced, because it's the only way you can steer at higher speed. It's so subtle you don't really realize your doing it. To lean left, you actually do a slight turn to the right, to begin the lean.
 

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Jim,
After all my years of riding, it was just a little over a year ago that I realized that I was countersteering. My DR is very light and flickable, but for some reason requires a heavy hand to get things started.

For those who still don't understand, find a long, twisty road and really concentrate on your muscle movement as you ride. Once you find that 'Eureka' moment, your rides will not only be more fun, but a great deal safer.

I used to pick a line through a turn and just go with it. Now, knowing that a little more or less pressure on the right or left bar can really refine the line, I find I can ride with far more precision, and that emergency maneuvers are much less challenging.

Steve
 

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Jim said:
I think you always have been, and always will be, Counter steering, even on a bicycle. ...
Not at low speeds, even on a motorcycle. At low speeds we steer without much lean, and by turning the front wheel in the direction we want to go.

But, yeah, once the training wheels are off we all counter-steer. For purposes of this discussion, though, the difference is in how it's initiated: how much body/knee pressure against the frame/tank vs. how much palm pressure against the inside handgrip at the entry to the turn, etc.

Again, as a test you can find that nice, big, deserted parking lot and while going straight at about 15MPH (for safety's sake, not because it's a critical speed or anything) try consciously not to apply hand pressure, and just push your butt from side to side against the saddle. The bike will weave back and forth and start to turn/lean, but not with the same authority as it did when deliberately counter-steering.
 

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I was countersteering long before I ever heard about it - I just didn't realize it. When you initiate a turn at over 35mph where you get a good lean going, you're porbably doing it without noticing it. If you lean the bike over while staying upright in the seat - then you're definately doing it.

FWIW: I don't really push on the inside handgrip - I pull on the outside. I roadraced for many years, with clip-on handlebars. When I'd throw it into a turn my body was too soon past the inside handlebar to push against it - pulling on the outside is what I got used to. Maybe I feel it that way because I was riding horses as a little kid - and you pull left to turn left...
 

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Robert said:
...I don't really push on the inside handgrip - I pull on the outside. ...Maybe I feel it that way because I was riding horses as a little kid - and you pull left to turn left...
Yeah, but now you "pull left" to turn right. :?

I like to say "push left to turn left" because it reinforces that you're leaning into the turn; pushing down on the handgrip "pushes" the bike down on the same side.

But, if you prefer to pull that's fine. Whatever flips your pancakes. :)
 

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Was that tester on drugs?
I have owned an old style SV650, SV1000 and now a Burgman 650 , saying the comfort is identical to a SV650 is CRAZY!
I sold my brand new SV650 after only 400 miles because it was so uncomfortable! I replaced it with a 400 Burgman.
To say you are locked in position is crazy, did'nt he try to move his feet backwards and forwards :lol:
 

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Brian said:
Jim said:
I think you always have been, and always will be, Counter steering, even on a bicycle. ...
Not at low speeds, even on a motorcycle. At low speeds we steer without much lean, and by turning the front wheel in the direction we want to go.

But, yeah, once the training wheels are off we all counter-steer. For purposes of this discussion, though, the difference is in how it's initiated: how much body/knee pressure against the frame/tank vs. how much palm pressure against the inside handgrip at the entry to the turn, etc.

Again, as a test you can find that nice, big, deserted parking lot and while going straight at about 15MPH (for safety's sake, not because it's a critical speed or anything) try consciously not to apply hand pressure, and just push your butt from side to side against the saddle. The bike will weave back and forth and start to turn/lean, but not with the same authority as it did when deliberately counter-steering.
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Jim said:
I think you always have been, and always will be, Counter steering, even on a bicycle. It just has never been identified, or discussed. It's just automatic, and never really practiced, because it's the only way you can steer at higher speed. It's so subtle you don't really realize your doing it. To lean left, you actually do a slight turn to the right, to begin the lean.
 

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If a rider isn't countersteering with his/her hands, that rider does not understand the principles of turning a motorcycle at speed. Leaning, knee against tank, etc. invokes unconcious countersteering as a by product, but control is comparitively sloppy. A rider that conciously throws their weigh from side to side or conciously presses a knee against the tank to turn (as opposed to conciously countersteering with their hands) is in jeopardy when an emergency situation comes up, and also in trouble contending with strong side wind gusts.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of riders like that on the road. I was one of them for my first 10 years or so of motorcycling. Back then MSF courses did not exist, there was no Internet or even PCs, and good motorcycle magazines were scarce. Common wisdom was that you leaned to turn the motorcycle. Common wisdom was to avoid using the front brake too much. Common wisdom should have killed us all - but some of us survived despite all of our bad habits.

One day I picked up a motorcycle magazine and read about countersteering. I got on my motorcycle and went out and tried it. What a breakthrough! I had never realized that I could control my direction of travel so quickly, so precisely, so effortlessly. A similar article on the dynamics of braking had me quickly unlearning some other bad habits.

Today, there is so much good information readily available that I have trouble understanding why so many riders do not seek it out and benefit from it. And there are riders who consider themselves "experienced", who don't really have a clue - they've just been lucky so far - as I was for that first 10 years.

Sorry... just a "knee jerk" reaction. :lol: :lol:
 

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"Comfort wise, we'd all thought that the Burgy would be the one we'd all be fighting over as the day got on and the body started to complain. Not so. Its feet forward, locked-in position made it not that much better than the SV, just with different numb bits." :shock: :shock: :shock:

Are these guys kidding or what!!! It seems that Maxi Scooters will never get their just rewards from moto journalists (if they can be called that). I think the only thing that will make these guys happy would be an auto transmission strapped on an otherwise traditional motorcycle (i.e. no step through design, larger wheels, etc.). Now granted, I've never ridden the big burger, but I would certainly bet that it is more comfy than most, if not all traditional motorcycles (that goes for all maxi scoots too). I can ride my majesty all day without any aches or much body fatigue at all.

This write up is really poor. In addition, it is inaccurate (Its feet forward, locked-in position) !!! Traditional motorcyclists will read this stuff and use it to justify their prejudice against these wonderfull machines. What a shame and what a sham!!!

Terrible.

Sorry to sound so angry, but I feel more snubbed by the motorcycle world day after day. The unreturned waves. The relentless intent on passing you. It's getting a little tiring. I guess we have to accept the fact that were not accepted. You know [email protected][email protected][email protected]$%&&*%^ em.

Again, I apologize for the histerics. Be safe out there. :wink:
 

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I think the only thing that will make these guys happy would be an auto transmission strapped on an otherwise traditional motorcycle (i.e. no step through design, larger wheels, etc.).
That would certainly make ME happy... I'd love to have a regular auto tranny cruiser-type motorcycle that LOOKS like a motorcycle.

But then again, I love the under-seat storage, the front storage, and the sleek, modern appearance of the Burgies.

Why can't we have BOTH?...

Regarding the "snubs" by the traditionalists... around here, virtually no one has one of these things, so most everybody waves at you anyway; when they see one coming head-on down the road they think it's a kind of sport bike. Plus, the few Harley riders I've met at lights come away with a new appreciation once I've dusted 'em... with a 'puny' 650. My buddy and I were out riding one day when one of 'em said, "It doesn't matter what you ride, as long as you ride." I detected the slightest note of condescension, but there was also some acceptance in there as well. Still, it felt kind of like I was being "damned with faint praise"...

WLB :)
 

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Actually - I'm more comfortable on my 98 Suzuki Bandit 1200 than on my 03 Suzuki AN650... I'm not comfortable with my feet anywhere except out front on my Burgman. No matter how I sit on my Burgman, my weight is concentrated on my seat - my feet and arms don't help support me. On my Bandit my feet and arms took some of the load. I have more wiggle room on the Burgman seat - but my shoulders and rear end get tired earlier than they do on a "Standard" sit up straight motorcycle. I'm 6'3", with a 35" inseam - your results will vary...

I do agree though that the moto-journalists views are skewed, and they they in turn skew the public opinion their way. Otherwise the Yamaha FZ6 and YZF600R would be much more lusted over as street rides than their more track oriented sibling the YZF-R6. I've been on a showroom and talked to newbie's that wanted to get an R6 as their first bike. I showed them the merits of the YZF600R, and explained how it was easier to ride, was smoother, and more comfortable - but they cited how "the magazines" raved about the R6... The magazines really need to rave about how much better an FZ6 style bike will carry your girlfriend than the R6, and stop all the hype about the replica racers. If I were still racing, then I would definately take an R6 on a track over an FZ6 or a YZF600R - and an R6 would be fun on solo rides in the country - but I wouldn't want to ride it in traffic, or anywhere with a passenger...

I saw a write up of a Suzuki V-Strom, a Triumph Tiger, and a KTM 950 Adventure. Not only did they show a one of them riding down the road standing on the seat - but they had a picture where one of them had fallen over (duh - that should have been expected) - and the idiot was standing with his foot on the Tiger as though it were some big game he had brought down. Why do the manufacturers loan these idiots their bikes? If I had loaned then the bike and seen them standing on it - I'd never loan them another one.

I also have to mention how funny I think it is that the magazines take pictures of their riders and turn the pictures on the page to make it look as though they were actually leaning into a corner. If they would ride the bikes instead of just be sophomoric show-offs then they wouldn't have to edit the photo's to try and make it look as though they knew what they were doing. I'd be interested in pictures of a bike (Burgman or whatever) leaning far over into a corner - but looking at someone standing on the seat turns me off, and looking at a picture that was rotated by the editor to try and make it look like the rider was leaning - that makes me feel insulted...
 

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Actually - I'm more comfortable on my 98 Suzuki Bandit 1200 than on my 03 Suzuki AN650... I'm not comfortable with my feet anywhere except out front on my Burgman. No matter how I sit on my Burgman, my weight is concentrated on my seat - my feet and arms don't help support me.
You bring up an extremely valid point. On the Burgie, I always feel as if I'm sitting "at attention", even when 'relaxed'. After about a half-hour in the saddle my butt starts going numb. Maybe a Corbin seat would fix this?... I'm 6'2".

I sat on a Harley 883 Custom once, and was immediately impressed with the ergonomic position for the rider. Sitting lower and slightly reclined, I felt fully supported, yet did not feel the pressure point on my rump. (Conversely, seating on the regular 883 was awful... my hips felt like they were being thrown out of joint when my feet were on the pegs.) Didn't have opportunity to ride the Custom, but wonder how it might have felt after time in the saddle.

At any rate, on the AN650, for me at least, the pressure points on the rump are all wrong. Trouble is, I'm not thrilled at having to throw $500+ at Corbin for a fix that may not even work. Hmmm....

WLB :)
 
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