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Discussion Starter #1
Sometime ago (Nov was it?), I posted "CVT Failure, I think" on my 2007 Burgman 650 with 73,800 miles when I lost power to the rear wheel.

I then verified the Seconday Pulley is turning by removing the Air Filter and watching the secondary pulley. Maybe, that means not the CVT (at least belt is not completly broken, I guess it could be something else in CVT).

However, someone on the Forum suggested a Clutch Test per the Book. I don't have a book - so he wrote back "hold the brake on and rev up the engine (short time of a couple seconds), if REVs exceed 3000 to 3800, tehn the Clutch is bad". Mine went to 6000rpm before I let off.

Original failure Mode -- I was roling along and lost power to rear wheel with top speed of 25mph, then lost speed up a hill, finally pulled over to let cars go by and it would not pull away from a stop. Close to home, so a motorist stopped and took me home - got trailer and hauled it home. Added some stabilizer to the gas and have been starting the Scooter once in awhile.

Finally, decided to at least get the clutch cage off (if I can - looking at Videos, and procedures on LeDude).
I am not sure I can take the clutch apart (tools, etc.) - maybe try that if some friends can help. OR, take the Clutch Assembly to a dealer to see what they think. AND SEE WHAT IT COSTS.

I got the floorborad out of the way by removing necessary screws and buttons, then pulled it from the fender (Tabs on fender plug into the floorboard and I was too lazy tot ake the fender off). I got the floorboard loose enough to tie it back (easier to get to the ten bolts holding the clutch cover). I should have taken a picture of the fender tied back.

Not saying I recommend that to someone worried about cosmetics. I am not worried about cosmetic damage as this scooter has some as it is and at 73800 miles it is not worth much.

I am not going to spend much on fixing it, but I would like to keep it as a ride anyplace Scooter (not trails, but gravel roads, etc., as I said it is all ready beat up some and at 73800 miles, it is not worth much). One other option woul dbe to find a wrecked (front end wreck) and buy it - take my front end and put it on the other bike. Saw a 2007 with front damge for $700 - probably should have jumped on it as low mileage (15K).

Anyway, this is as far as I got. (picture) And, I am in no hurry as I have other rides (NINJA 500 /2008/ and a Burgman 400 /2011/. Bought the 400 in Dec of 2013 with 5100 miles on it).
 

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You've made a good start. If you can rig up a tool to compress the spring taking the clutch the rest of the way apart is not a big deal. Biggest problem is just keeping all the parts in the correct order as you take it apart so that you can get it back together right.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
One thing leads to another (screw up). Burgman 650 with Clutch Case Cover removed and oil drained, but clutch is still installed as in above picture.

I had been starting the Scooter once in awhile since the failure garaged it in Nov (no problems but a little slow to start the last time a couple weeks ago).

Yesterday before I started the Clutch Case Removal, I figured restart it as it may be awhile before I get the clutch repaired. It would not start (cranked over pretty good). I figured maybe the battery was down just enough to not start. So, I put a charger on it last evening while I removed the Clutch case and left it on overnight.

Decided to see if it would start today (figured enough oil on parts to not hurt anything for a quick start and opportunity to watch the clutch in action). It did not but cranked over like crazy. I am hoping something as simple as fouled plugs from not running it much (plugs have 73800 miles on them).

Anyway, cranking it pumped oil out of the hole (oil is pumped up thru the case cover thru the "little hump" to the bearing in the case -see picture of Case Cover above). That bearing receives the Clutch Shaft when the case is installed.

Cleaning up the oil mess (not too bad as I had papers and a rag under the assembly), I noticed a part laying on the floor. I think cranking the engine over pumped it along with the oil out of the hole in the frame.

The part looks similar to a Valve Stem from a tire (Picture) - a little larger and of course it is not a valve stem.

Next Picture - See the hole just below the guide pin, the hole has a drop of oil coming out of it.

??? - ANYONE have an inoput on that part??? I have not looked at it yet - hoping that part just slides back into the hole and hole I can find a picture showing that which way it goes in.
 

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I haven't torn into this part of the engine but I think it's what the service manual calls the "orifice jet." It goes into the hole in the crankcase that delivers oil to the clutch housing. The manual shows the smaller end going into the crankcase first.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks Everyone. Right on - the little end goes in first (whatever it's exact purpose is).

I came on to Post that. I was at Mtn Motorports after a rdie today (dealer off of I-40, Exit 407 in TN). We (mostly the parts man) looked it up on parts diagram. I probably would have taken forever to find the thing on parts list myself. :(

Something new every time we trun around - at elast eevryone seeing this will know it exists.
 

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There are several "orifice jets" in the engine, their job is to reduce the oil flow to certain components such as the clutch and camshafts.

The one you're playing with isn't mentioned in the engine-rebuild section of the service manual. They show it a nice drawing of the lubrication system later on but never talk about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Continued ----

Looking at LeDude's Procedure Clutch Removal Part 1 - it says have to remove the Nut on the shaft (mine is 22MM) tog et the Clutch Basket off.

Not having the proper Hub Holding Tool - I was trying something to hold the hub and remove the nut (22MM Nut). Might have worked, but best to wait until I get a proper tool. ANYWAY -- That said, While messing with the thing, I found the Clutch Basket Comes OFF without removing that nut.

When I look at the assmebly after removing it -- I see no reason the nut has to be removed to get the clutch basket off. But I also see the shaft and the gears came out (still in the clucth basket). However, I imagine it will have to be removed to replace the items in the clutch.

DID I MESS UP BIG Time or what?? I assume I can just put it back on, I hope.

Lack of knowledge is my problem. :(

Note Pictures:

Clutch basket (first picture) - the 22MM Nut is still attached on the back of it (not visible here) and the gears came out with the basket (spline and reduction gear).

Also, note that the assemebly just plugs into the chasis (second picture) with a spline gear to lineup and a reduction gear to also line up.
[/B]
 

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That doesn't sound right. As best I can remember when Robin and I pulled the one off her bike we had to remove the nut first. I don't have my manual handy or I would look it up.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
That doesn't sound right. As best I can remember when Robin and I pulled the one off her bike we had to remove the nut first. I don't have my manual handy or I would look it up.
Looking at it --- I can see how it would all come off together as the other end of the shaft just goes into the Spline Gear.

As LeDude procedure says, the instructions said to remove the shaft (after he got the Cage off) and inspect the gears. He said his seemd tight so he did not do it.

Only problem I see now is --- coming up with a way to compress the Clutch Springs to get the "C" Clip and rest of the stuff out. Then it might be hard to align the spline gears with the Cage on the shaft.

If not, might be able to hold the Hub now and get the nut off :confused:

What I tried (not thinking it would work) was I made a bolt to go in the holes on the hub where the tool Y would go. Then blocked some wood up to the bolt and tried to break the nut loose. Was afraid to put too much torque on it with only the one bolt and the wood blocks keeping it from turning.

See Picture and visualize a bolt in the hole (at 8 on a clock) with wodd blocked up to the bolt.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
The latest as of today 03-10-14.

Seeking advice on what is good and bad for Clutch Parts (see pictures0) Maybe there is a Micrometer Spec someplace????

As I said before -- the shaft just goes to a spline gear on the chassis side and came off with the Clurch Cage when I was trying to remove the shaft nut (22MM Nut).

First picture shows the Clutch Cage with all the parts in including the shaft (round thing with spline gear inside that goes to the Chasis side).

I bought a PVC End Cap (5 inch outside diameter) thinking I might be able to use it to make a Spring Compression Tool (Similar to one in LeDude's Procedure that a guy on Burgman/USA made). I had also talked to a neighbor (Steve of Iron Horse) about using an Impact Wrench (Electric Battery Powered) to get the Shaft nut off the Clutch Cage in case I needed or decided to do that.

Second picture is recreation of idea I used to Compress the Springs to get the "C'C clip out. Instead of making a Compression Tool. I laid the Clutch Cage on two blocks of wood (working parts up) and the shaft (about an inch long) between the two boards. Sorry, I did not take a picture of that, but I did take one after everything was apart to give an idea of what I did.

The PVC End Cap was installed in the center of the Clutch Cage so as to rim the inner workings. Steve stood on the PVC Cap while I removed the 'C'-Clip. Make Sense??? We expected the whole thing to blow up from spring pressure after I had the 'C' Clip out and he removed his foot. We did not see anything move, not much spring pressure or a short throw on it?

Third picture shows the Clutch Cage (shaft still in) with all the parts out that we could take out with the shaft still in. We had by then taken the Shaft Nut off (see it laying to the upper right in the picture). Also, see the innards in upper right.

Fourth picture shows the Clutch Hub with the Shaft still in the hub. It is not going to slip out of there real easy, but I have not tried hard to separate them. Not sure I need to, may have to in order to get things back together. In the picture, I have reinstalled the nut and washer on the shaft (not to loose them or forget what goes where).

Fifth Picture shows everything except the "C' Clip. Turned the Clutch Cage over and the Shaft and Clutch Hub turned in the direction they would be if the Clutch Cage was installed back on the Shaft. Again, nut and washer or on the shaft. I ran a twine thru everything to keep them in order. (LeDude's Picture also shows the order).

Sixth picture is close up of the shaft end (still in the Clutch Hub) showing the spline gears that go into the Clutch Cage. All looks to be in good shape after 73,800 miles.

Seventh picture shows the Clutch Cage with the shaft out, see the spline gears in the Clutch Cage and the springs and bolts that hold them and the. All looks in good shape after 73,800 miles. SPRINGS -- I have not disassembled the springs, but I probably will replace those while it is all apart if I decide to replace everything else.

Eight picture shows the bundle of plates and springs tied to keep them in right order. The fiber plate shown on top is the one that drives against the Clutch Cage in picture 8. In other words the retaining and "C" Clip are on the bottom.

Ninth picture is close up of the plates. Good? Bad? - I do not know. there are no catastrophic failures as fiber is still there. Not sure how thick they should be.

All the parts would be in the range of $200 plus, so unless I think the clutch is a fix for my original problem, I may give up. I am not getting into the actual CVT.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
When my clutch went out, this is what my plates looked like.

More here
http://burgmanusa.com/gallery/Jims-Gallery/Clutch/

A Lengthy Thread, from April of 07, starting at page 6 Clutch Fixed
Thanks -- I cannot relate to the pictures. The fiber one is what (an edge??).

EDIT MY COMMENT --OK went back and blew it up (ZOOMED) and see it is an edge. Loks more worn than mine.

Sure would like to have an idea of thickness of the fiber on a new one.

Does the Blue mean really blue from Heat.

Mine or not.
 

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Thanks -- I cannot relate to the pictures. The fiber one is what (an edge??).

EDIT MY COMMENT --OK went back and blew it up (ZOOMED) and see it is an edge. Looks more worn than mine.

Sure would like to have an idea of thickness of the fiber on a new one.

Does the Blue mean really blue from Heat.

Mine or not.
My clutch was burned up, and the bluing of the metal plate was from the heat.

In all honesty, I did not think yours looked that bad.

Are both sides of the fibre plate worn evenly ?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I looked thru LeDude (Clutch removal Part 1) that I had printed out and did not see any specification.

Have to look again, but did not see anything regarding evaluating the plates as far as dimensions (say Micrometer Spec).

I also thought plates did not look too bad (guess I expected to see worn thru to metral on the fibers or disintegrating or something).

The plates are worn pretty evenly. But if worn down to small compared to original -- guess that could caue it. Failure was sudden and resulted in 25MPH top speed, I stoped once at a stop sign and got back up to 25mph, then decreased to 8mph going up a hill. After I pulled over and stopped- it would not pull at all (well very little).
 

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Drive plate thickness:
Service Limit: 2.62 mm (0.095 in)
Driven plate No.2 thickness:
Service Limit: 2.27 mm (0.0894 in)

Drive plate claw width:
Service Limit: 13.05 mm (0.5138 in)

CLUTCH DRIVEN PLATE NO.2 INSPECTION
Distortion of driven plate:
Service Limit: 0.1 mm (0.004 in)

Clutch spring free length:
Service Limit: 13.2 mm (0.5197 in)

Clutch plate concaved washer height:
Service Limit: 3.1 mm (0.12 in)
 

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ITEM STANDARD LIMIT mm (In)
Drive plate thickness 2,92 – 3,08 (0,115 – 0,121) 2,62 (0,103)
Drive plate claw width 13,85 – 13,96 (0,545 – 0,550) 13,05 (0,514)
Driven plate No.2 thickness 2,42 – 2,58 (0,095 – 0,102) 2,27 (0,089)
Driven plate No.1 distortion — 0,10 (0,004)
Clutch spring free length 13,9 (0,547) 13,2 (0,520)
Clutch plate concaved washer height — 3,1 (0,12)
Clutch engagement 1 500 – 2 100 r/min. —
Clutch lock-up 3 200 – 3 800 r/min. —
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Check on My Theory of operation????

There are Roller Weights behind the plate shown in the pitcure below (Cannot see them as they are behind the palte in picture below showing the the four springs). The plate is held away from contact with the rest of the clutch by the springs (at idle - less than about 2000rpm). Then when the RPM gets higher, the roller weights behind the plate push it out against the springs to cause it to move push all the plates together. Then the power gets transfered to the wheels.

By the way, there are the springs between plates (second picture black rings) that keep the plates apart (so, no power to the wheels) until the final plate is pushed out against the other plates by the roller weights when engine speed gets up over 2000rpm.

So, as I see it --- SPRINGS (4 shown) as I understand operation being weak would not affect clutch engagement, but might result in some pulling (torque to the wheel at below normal takeoff speed of 2000rpm).

Clutch slppage would nearly have to be ONLY from wear on plates (steel and fiber) or a problem with the Roller Weights not causing the final plate to move and push the plates together.

All that operation theory is just my opinion, but I have seen pictures of the springs and plate reomoved abd their are roller weights behind the plate. (It is just my theory as to how it operates - not a known fact). I do know it is centrifugal operated as engine speed picks up, and therefore allows slippage at idle (The CVT Belt is turning the Secondary pulley all the time and that shaft is transferred to the Clutch).

One guy on BurgmanUSA.com site worked his - he said his plates looked worse than mine (He had fiber wear and blueing from heat on the steel plates).

Another guy sent me some specifications on plates. I HAVE NOT FILTERED THRU all that yet, but it looks as Curt said (tolerances are tight and may be hard to tell).

ITEM STANDARD LIMIT mm (In)
Drive plate thickness 2,92 – 3,08 (0,115 – 0,121) 2,62 (0,103)
Drive plate claw width 13,85 – 13,96 (0,545 – 0,550) 13,05 (0,514)
Driven plate No.2 thickness 2,42 – 2,58 (0,095 – 0,102) 2,27 (0,089)
Driven plate No.1 distortion — 0,10 (0,004)
Clutch spring free length 13,9 (0,547) 13,2 (0,520)
Clutch plate concaved washer height — 3,1 (0,12)
Clutch engagement 1 500 – 2 100 r/min. —
Clutch lock-up 3 200 – 3 800 r/min. —
__________________

Drive plate thickness:
Service Limit: 2.62 mm (0.095 in)
Driven plate No.2 thickness:
Service Limit: 2.27 mm (0.0894 in)

Drive plate claw width:
Service Limit: 13.05 mm (0.5138 in)

CLUTCH DRIVEN PLATE NO.2 INSPECTION
Distortion of driven plate:
Service Limit: 0.1 mm (0.004 in)

Clutch spring free length:
Service Limit: 13.2 mm (0.5197 in)

Clutch plate concaved washer height:
Service Limit: 3.1 mm (0.12 in
 

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