[Paul 38Burg650 07]

I am starting a New Post on the results of the Car Tire Installation on the 400 as the previous post did not include the words Car Tire or Darkside and got long with all the problems I had removing OEM Tire and mounting the Car Tire. Seating was also a problem and I broke my recommendation to staya round70 or so PSI. We ended up at near 100 PSI and I used Teflon Lubricant (spray can like WD40) as last lubricant). Anyway, tha tis all documented.

I hope all this helps someone decide waht and how to do it. If you are thinking Darkside - so far, i recommend it.

This is LONG and DETAILED with PICTURES. There will be several posts involved. (Pictures and details of installation, pictures on scooter, pictures after 15 mile test ride). I sent E Mail to my ride lsit and others, easier in E Mail as I can write above the pictures - so, I hope this make sense when I am done.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

The removal of OEM Tire (150-70-13) at 6190 miles, mounting of the Car Tire (Achilles Premium 155-70R-13) on the Rim, and the problems getting it seated have been reported. Tire shiped from www.Tireeasy.com -- but I would look locally for a 13 inch tire in that size (save shipping). I did not, but wish I had.

First -- It makes it easier if you put the Scooter up at least one block (I am using 2 x 8 by various lengths). To do this (sounds simple, but this will help):: First run the front and rear tires up on a block (Before removing OEM Tire) and MAKE SURE you have a board to catch the side stand. Then place a board under the Center Stand where it contacts the board solidly on both feet of the center stand (important to get it under both feet of the stand or you may tip the whole thing over). Then just pull the Scooter up on the center sand as you normally would. Note: If you do not run the Scooter tires up on the boards first, you cannot force the Scooter onto the Center Stand with a board under it as there is not enough leverage.

NOTE: NO PLASTIC REMOVED - You can get to everything (the muffler exhaust pipe clamp is the only half way difficult thing to reach - see 2 of 2 for that).

Now - the Install of Wheel with Car Tire.

I was all set to start and realized after we seated the tire bead at Curt's, we did not balance the wheel (DUH). So, I went to Bob's and he did a bang up job (spin balance). I usually just static balance on the axle, but you can't with this bike as the spline gears on axle and hub interfere.

I had one interference problem when trying to put the hub ion the axle. ------ The Car Tire being a bit larger in Diameter (155 x 70) vs OEM (150 x 70) and I think the Car Tire has more tread thickness (I measured 0.25 inches with a micrometer depth gauge). Anyway, the Car Tire tread at about 2 O'Clock interfered where the tire goes under the fender (which is the bottom of the storage area under the seat). There is a flange apparently where two sections of the fender are joined. The tread of the Car Tire was barely touching the flange and would not allow one to get the hub and axle aligned to allow the spline gear to connect. SO, I CUT some of the flange away. HINDSIGHT -- I wish I would have cut a bit less of the flange. I don't think there will be a problem, but leaving it as close as possible to OEM would be best.

Pictures showing the interference are not real clear - should have used a flash vs a trouble light on the material - HINDSIGHT).

The flange interference is in the area where I rubbed the dirt off to show it (upper left black shinny area of the picture). DOES IT MAKE SENSE? If not, maybe this helps - the dirty area to the left of the shinny black area is the cutout in the storage area to give the tire clearance as the frame moves up and down over bumps. Anyway, the flange is like where two piece of the fender were joined (the piece for the tire cutout and the piece for the rest of the bottom of the storage compartment). The axle out of the CVT with it's part of the spline gear is shown along with bearing in the CVT case.

I used this serrated knife to cut the plastic (it was easy to cut). Just wish I would have taken a bit less of it.

The tire then cleared the flange and I was able to mesh up the spline gears (Hub to Axle).
If you look closely above the second 'L" in the tire name, you can see where I started the cut.

Enough of that - the rest is simple. Make sure all spacers are in place (there is one behind the tire where the axle goes thru that is not shown in my pictures). It pretty much stays in there (even thru all the mounting of the tire and trying to bead it). It did come out when I was wiping things off.

This picture shows the clearance of the tire with the metal in front of the tire. I looked at that before I continued mounting as you can not see very well once the swing arm is back in place. Clearance is about 3/4 inch and I am not worried about it. I also felt with my fingers between the CVT (other side of the wheel) and sidewall of the tire, no problem there. Why would there be as tire is only 2.5 MM wider off center?'

Before putting the swing arm on check to see that the "0" ring is in the wheel hub at the spline gear end of the wheel (mine fell out when the guy did a spin balance and he happened to see it on the floor - lucky as I might not have realized one was in there). You also need to make sure the spacer is behind the Swing Arm. Then slide the Swing Arm over the axle while holding the other end as near in alignment the two bolt holes as you can. Then install the two bolts part way in, they will be torque after you have finished torquing the axle bolt.

Installing Spacer and Axle Bolt. Make sure spacer is turned correctly (it would not make sense to put it any other way). Then snug up about hand tight (torque later to 87 Ft Lbs).

Then install Brake Caliper and SET the hand Brake (Brake holds the wheel while you torque the Axle Nut).

Then torque the two Swing arm Bolts on the other end of the swing arm.

The NEXT POST (if noone else posts - please don't) will conclude with the Muffler Installation - final pictures and test ride.

 

[Paul 38Burg650 07]

Muffler Installation and Final Pictures.


The Muffler installation went smoothly. I roped muffler up to the hand rails to support weight while aligning the exhaust pipe from the muffler to the pipe from the engine. There is a clamp to install after you get the mounting bolts installed (one at top of muffler and two below). You of course have to slip the two pipes together and then push and twist until the three mounting holes are aligned. I found it easier to align the bottom holes first and put those bolts in nearly all the way. Then the top mounting bolt fell into alignment. Hand tighten all those with a wrench.

Then the ring holding the exhaust pipes together is the hardest thing to get to. The main portion of that stays with the muffler when you remove it. So, all you need to do is put the spacer between the clamps and run the bolt thru the clamp and spacer to the nut that is retained. You can get angle to get hands in there pinch the clamp together and then put a bolt in by fingers. Then tighten it up with a ratchet. I had a ratchet that you can turn the handle on to turn the bolt. Make it easier until you have it nearly tight and then use it as a ratchet to tighten it. I did not torque it, just used common sense. I think?

Roped up to support weight while you maneuver it around tog et pipes together and mounting holes lined up/

G-Son gave me this ratchet with a handle to turn and tighten or loosen - you can also use it like a normal ratchet.

Detail of the clamp and Bolt with Ratchet. If you know what you are looking for, you can see a bit of the brass spacer in the middle of the clamp (above the socket). Maybe see it better in the next picture.
Warning: I did drop the spacer the first time I attempt to get it all together and it fell down on top the plastic underbelly. I thought OH NO !!!, have to take all that plastic off, but I was able to feel around in there and get it with my fingers.

You can see where the short exhaust pipe on the other side of the clamp attaches to the engine. Be glad you do not have to take it loose from there (a lot of plastic would;d have to come of).

There she is, ready to roll. I did some Center Stand clearance and spin up tests first.

One picture where I moved the Scooter to wash front wheel shows clearance under the wheel when on Center Stand. It was clear oin the other picture also as I started the engine and reved it to make wheel turn.

There are no interference problems - can feel with fingers between the CVT and Tire (say about a pinky clearance as can not get hand all the way around there and hard to look in there).

After a 15 mile test ride to a friends. BY THE WAY - Friend sat on on the scooter and jumped up and down (he is likely 250 or more) while I laid on the ground checking for clearance under the fender (NO PROBLEMS). But, I will keep an eye on that for rub marks. (EX: MY 650 with Car Tire did rub som. I think with the first car tire that was oversized width ad ratio and when my wife was doubled up and hit bumps - very sklight rubbing).

LAST PICTURE (after 15 mile test ride) - Running 38 PSI.
I did a few significant lean angles (roads were damp in some places and I did not push it as wanting to rub the tire in first). I did do a turn around in a cul de sac - maybe 30 or 40 degree lean. You can se at say 2 O'Clock on the tire - the lean does not get far over on the sidewall (no where near the end of the tread ). I have noticed that on the 650 with a car tire on it. I think I am really going to like this tire.

 

[Desert Rat]

Paul
Glad to see you got it on. I sure know there aren't very many darkside 400 out there.

 

[Elliott Larron]

Looks More Sporty,

Elliott,

 

[Paul 38Burg650 07]

I was back on Tire Easy site www.tireeasy.com and looking at tires -- The one I used is Achilles Premium (because of symetrical tread pattern and speed rating of H).

Neither of those is a big issue as you will not notice significant handling (lean or right with a non symetrical tire, I speak from experience on the Burgman 650) and we will not be going 130moph on a Burgman 400 (so a T Rating is as good).

Anyway here is the site link. Add shipping (I think mine was $26).

http://www.tires-easy.com/cgi-bin/r...ol=standard&rsmFahrzeugart=&suchen=View+Tires

 

[Paul 38Burg650 07]

Another 120 miles added to the Car Tire today (still limted on evaluation).

One observation is Speedometer error is around 6.5% (50mph on speedometer as close as I can hold it there shows sometimes 46 and sometieims 47mph on GPS). Likely, that variation is not being able to hold it exactly 50mph on the dial and a GPS does vary some as it calculates (I think). I felt the OEM tire was closer to 10% off (50 indicated was actually 45)

Performance -- I am very pleased to date. It was cold ride today, 32F nearly the whole 120 miles. So, I was not pushing the limit. It was curvy, pretty dry roads, and some allowed higher speeds (not blind curevs and I hung off a little bit a couple times). Very stable feel and can hardly tell differnce VS the MC tire that was on it. It felt better than the 650 with Car Tires and I had 30000 miles of that (lot of pretty hard curves). NOT A KNEE DRAGGER, but I ride.

By the way -- The OEM tire when I bought the Scooter used was nearly ready to change (5200 miles). There was some center tread left (woyld fail the penny test FOR SURE). I used it another 1000 miles. All that time, it was nearly flat at the center of the tire (maybe as flat as a Car tire) and slick (very little tread in center). A lot on the edge - obviously, the PO did not ride curves much.

I ask, is that safer (nearly slick MC tire that is flat across the center) than the car tire with decent tread on the edge (I had 21,.000 miles on the Burgman 650 before I replaced it due to a plug in it and it looked better than any MC tire that I replaced for wear). How many of you push a tire to the limit wear wise to get that extra 1000 or 2000 miles -- I DO).

A friend running Car tires on his VALK got 30,000 on his last one and he rides (plus rides double with his wife and they are not light weights).

 

[Chappy]

That's great news Paul... Thanks for the updates!

 

[Paul 38Burg650 07]

1250 miles on the Car Tire. Not a lot of miles yet, but it has not been a proiblem and I have had it on the steepest, most curvy roads around here, including a gravel run of 10 miles (packed road).

Picture - you can see the lean marks (and I have leaned it a least 45 to 50 degrees) does not get far up the edge tread.

 

[Elliott Larron]

1250 miles on the Car Tire. Not a lot of miles yet, but it has not been a proiblem and I have had it on the steepest, most curvy roads around here, including a gravel run of 10 miles (packed road).

Picture - you can see the lean marks (and I have leaned it a least 45 to 50 degrees) does not get far up the edge tread.

Still looks Great Paul,

Elliott,

 

[Chappy]

I'm getting ready. Did the trunk leak Paul after the grinding for tire clearance ?

 

[Paul 38Burg650 07]

I'm getting ready. Did the trunk leak Paul after the grinding for tire clearance ?

NO - But, you do not need to take off as much as I did to get the tire (wheel) under there and back on the axle.

 

[Paul 38Burg650 07]

Example of some of the roads ridden around here - todays rie on Devils Triangle (Hwy 116 --- enter off of Hwy 62, south of Wartburg, TN, and over to Hwy 330 Intersection). .

Curvin' and Leanin' -- :blob6:

You can see other rides on a couple web sites I post Ride Reports on (like recently 3 Mtns and 4 Mtns - local area roads). at www.easttnbikers.com under Ride Reports and I post as PAULRIDES.

 

[knucklehead]

Looks like a fun road Paul. Cold too! Temps here got to 61F today - but we got rain in the bargain. Can't win em all eh?

When my 400 Majesty needs a tire I'll be darksiding it. It takes the same size tire as the 400 Burgman. I just need to put some miles on it if I'm going to use up the OEM tire before it rots off the bike. I ride the 650 most of the time.

 

[Paul 38Burg650 07]

UPDATE:::

A 4000 miles +/- a little UPDATE on the Car Tire.

Measured tread depth a few palces in center (0.200 +/- a little -

Took picture today at 10,200 miles on the Scooter using Car tire since 6200 miles (0.200 + a little on average). Initial when new was 0.25 +/- inch.


Pictures:

New- Zero Miles (0.250 +/- inch depth)

1200 Miles

4000 Miles (0.200 + a little).

 

[Scooter_Maniac]

Paul-
How aggressively do you ride? I'm not a wild man by any means but, here in Colorado we have lots of twisties to enjoy. Have you gone so far as to have scraped a center stand with this tire? How has it felt on wet pavement? I am on the verge of ordering one, largely depending on your input. Luckily, my local Suzy mechanic, who has had a failed attempt at seating a CT on a scooter rim (he thinks it was a 400 but, can't remember for sure), says he will give it a shot for the same $20 he would charge to mount a scooter tire (off the bike price, of course). I told him I would take info off your posts for enlightenment.

 

[Paul 38Burg650 07]

Paul-
How aggressively do you ride? I'm not a wild man by any means but, here in Colorado we have lots of twisties to enjoy. Have you gone so far as to have scraped a center stand with this tire? How has it felt on wet pavement? I am on the verge of ordering one, largely depending on your input. Luckily, my local Suzy mechanic, who has had a failed attempt at seating a CT on a scooter rim (he thinks it was a 400 but, can't remember for sure), says he will give it a shot for the same $20 he would charge to mount a scooter tire (off the bike price, of course). I told him I would take info off your posts for enlightenment.

Sorry late responding -- have not been on here for a bit (too busy riding, yard work, etc.)

I consider myself Moderate Aggresive (I have not drug anything). We have plenty of curves and steep mtn terrain including step switchabcks in East TN (mnay roads like the Dragon assuming you have heard of the Dragon - if not GOOGLE Dragon)

No problems with the tire for handling as far as i am concerned.

Mounting -- I covered in this FORUM. Cannot add much to what I have put on here. I had to get help (mainly because I was scared to pull on the tire irons when it got difficult - had a friend come over and finished it for me -- as described in my posts).

Also, I had long handled Tire Irons which made it hard to get under the tire bead (handles hit on the other side of the tire and could not get a good angle to get under the bead). Friend had short Tire Irons (about 8 or 10 inches - I guess). I have another set of Tire Irons now that are long handled and have a curve in the end to help get iron under the bead (loaned to me to try by another friend that use to be a Honda Mecahnic) I have not used them yet.

Seating was also a problem -- same friend seated it (I was trying to stay less than 80 PSI for seating). I think final was closer to 100PSI.

 

[Paul 38Burg650 07]

Update on Car Tire at 7200 miles. Measured between -017 and 0.018 (call average of 0 0.175in tread depth) vs 0.250in (new tread depth). Picture provided.

Usage Results & Projection of Use to be is 24,000 miles.
Now at 7200 miles of use) New it was 0.250in Tread Depth, now at 7200 miles it is 0.175in.
Expect to get 7200 divided by 0.075 times 0.250 = 24,000 miles (+/- errors in measurements and change in wear rates).


Questions about Riding Style with Car Tire?

ANSWER: I am not a race rider (dragging knees at 60 Degree Lean Angles), but I ride.
Picture of Chicken Strip on Front Tire at 13,300 miles. (Chicken Strip is unused part of surface at edge of the tire).

 

[ErikDK]

Front chicken strips don't count

 

[Paul 38Burg650 07]

One thing I do not like about this web site is -- Poster cannot change item after the Edit Time runs Out.

I would love to change the Title of this Thread (I started it) so people would find it when searching on Darkside or on Car Tire and I am way past (15 Mile Test Ride). Dumb me included those words in the Subject. GROAN.

Change to (if nayone knows how):

Darkside / Car Tire on 400 (Achilles CT Installed & Updates on Useage)

 

[Paul 38Burg650 07]

Front chicken strips don't count

Prety much tells how you lean.

Not much else to look at - sure don't have chicken strips on rear of car tire. I think CT just flattens out and barely rolls onto the edge.