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Discussion Starter #1
Well, I was thinking of getting a Burgman LX (Executive) but I thought the $10,000 price tag on the Burgman LX (Executive) was too much considering that scooter values drop like a stone after a year or two. So I then considered getting a standard 2004 low mileage Burgman with a nice Yoshimura titanium pipe and CF-look aerovisors for $6500. But last night a nice '96 BMW R1100RT came up on auction with all the goodies I wanted: Electric screen, audio, ABS brakes, massive luggage capacity, great wind protection. I started bidding frantically and a half-hour later I was the owner of this for the same price the 2004 non-ABS Burgman was going to cost.






Anyhow, I'll keep my eye out for a used ABS Burgman -- which is what I really wanted in the first place but they're few and far between -- so I might have a Burger yet :p
 

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Good lookin machine. How much milage is on it? Will it fit under your Xmas tree? :)
 

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Sssssssssssslick!
 

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Nice bike! I am sure you are going to enjoy it!

Last year my Wife and I took a 'sexy-looking' BMW K1200LT for a couple of hour test drive. Really liked the bike and would have bought one except for one major problem...it was really top heavy :shock: . Not a problem on the highway, but certainly a handful while running around in town. Plus it was three times more expensive than the Burgman :shock: .

In the end I made the right decision in buying the Burgy 650. It provides more than adequately for all my needs (& still has plenty of sex appeal). :D
 

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Hey let me be frank...if you happen to change your mind and do buy the Burgman and decide to keep the beautiful BMW, you find one thing will occur. You will enter your garage and you will be taking the Burgman's keys there more often than you will the BMW's.

That's a very simple fact. Don't give up just yet. I have owned over 35 bikes over the years and I currently have 5. I have put 2500 kms on my beautiful V11 Moto Guzzi sport (2001) but have over 7,500 kms on the 400 Burgman (2004).

Uhm and then I went and promptly placed an order for a 650 in November 2004 for a 2005 model. Am I nuts? Maybe human nature is universal and this will repeat itself over and over again because I do remember reading many postings here describing this very same scenario. The 650 or even the 400 are really fun machines to ride. They are smooth, handle well, comfortable seating and ultra modern looking. Don't let the scooter icon bother you because I found after returning from a trip on the V11, I was thinking how much more fun this would have been with the 650 Burgman. Good luck with that Beemer, you'll get a reasonable trade in.....
 

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Good luck with the BMW although luck has little to do with it--they are well built bikes....there bikes not scooters, altogether different rides.
As anyone can tell you a motorcycle is a motorcycle ...and a scooter is both. :D

One last point - you seem to think a lot of the ABS, it's great I agree, but it will lever take the place of practicing emergency stops.
It's real advantage is not in shorter stops or "no brain" emergency stops -with practice any standard bike can stop just as quick.
It's main advantage is it will allow you to steer your way out of trouble while braking, but this take practice also .
 

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Randy said:
One last point - you seem to think a lot of the ABS, it's great I agree, but it will lever take the place of practicing emergency stops.
It's real advantage is not in shorter stops or "no brain" emergency stops -with practice any standard bike can stop just as quick.
It's main advantage is it will allow you to steer your way out of trouble while braking, but this take practice also .
Disagree- ABS allows you to apply the maximum braking effort without locking up a wheel - which is the great variable because it depends on the road conditions as to exactly when that will occur (wet, gravel, diesel etc).

Practice all you like but you will not beat that.

Lots of folks think it is about stopping distance in the dry but that ain't the case although your latter point abput steering while braking is a major plus. :)
 

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NormanB wrote
Disagree- ABS allows you to apply the maximum braking effort without locking up a wheel - which is the great variable because it depends on the road conditions as to exactly when that will occur (wet, gravel, diesel etc).

ABS does let the wheel lock up and then pulses the wheel between lock up and release.
As far as not being able to beat it --Hay. .disagreements can be fun . :argue:
I will stick to my statement -not saying I am right, just stubborn 8)
 

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Randy said:
NormanB wrote
Disagree- ABS allows you to apply the maximum braking effort without locking up a wheel - which is the great variable because it depends on the road conditions as to exactly when that will occur (wet, gravel, diesel etc).

ABS does let the wheel lock up and then pulses the wheel between lock up and release.
As far as not being able to beat it --Hay. .disagreements can be fun . :argue:
I will stick to my statement -not saying I am right, just stubborn 8)
Oh come on!
The wheel will only lock for a small portion of rotation, the magnitude depending on how many segments in the sensor,
Merry Christmas! :)
 

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NormanB wrote
Oh come on!
The wheel will only lock for a small portion of rotation
A lock, is a lock, is a lock. !
what can I say except Merry Christmas right back to you & and any,many more :)
PS.read about your 650---WAY TO GO !
 

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locking wheels

So if I was hard over on a corner, (not a good place to go bananas with the brakes), and I applied the ABS brakes with vigour, the thing would stay shiny side up? :)

Find this hard to accept. :?
 

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Re: locking wheels

lilleyen said:
So if I was hard over on a corner, (not a good place to go bananas with the brakes), and I applied the ABS brakes with vigour, the thing would stay shiny side up? :)

Find this hard to accept. :?
I believe it would - but you wouldn't get much braking either, no matter how much "vigor" you put into squeezing the levers - until you stood the scooter up straight. Anybody here ride an ABS bike that can verify that?
 

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Well I have not any personal experience here but my take:

1. You will not lock the wheel (signficantally) with ABS.
2. It will stay shiny side up, unless an additional external force is brought into act (ice - negative friction!).
3. If you apply max pressure on the front brake, then you will get the maximum braking effect possible. In non ABS you will either apply less than maximum to avoid lock up OR overcook and lock the wheel and then
a. A locked wheel is not providing best braking.
b. You could go down!
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Timothy Ma said:
Hey let me be frank...if you happen to change your mind and do buy the Burgman and decide to keep the beautiful BMW, you find one thing will occur. You will enter your garage and you will be taking the Burgman's keys there more often than you will the BMW's...
You could be right, Tim. My decision to go for the BMW was based on two reasons. First, I really wanted ABS. Second, I'm a bike **** :wink: I ride bikes for a year or two, then want to try the grass on the other side of the fence. After spending about $50,000 grand on a variety of new bikes over the past 10 years I made a decision a couple years back to not buy new anymore, and to stick with used bikes that held their value fairly well so when I sold them I was out a minimum amount. Two year old Burger drop about half their original value on the used market so it wouldn't make sense for me to buy a new ABS model unless I planned on keeping it for years. If I could find a Burger ABS used for around $6k I would grab one, but they are very rare. So I bought the RT. Even if I ride it a couple years it should be worth around $5500-6k. I paid $6500.

Regarding ABS, here's a good test of ABS vs. non-ABS bikes.

http://www.ibmwr.org/prodreview/abstests.html
 

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Good article. Thanks for the link Jim.
 

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ABS article

Great article, a real eye opener.

ABS seems to be good for All Bad Stopping situations. :wink:

Now I want it!
 

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Thanks for the link. There were a several questions answered for me in the article.

1. ABS does not work right if leaned over in a turn. Today's systems are not sophisticated enough to account for lean angle. (I thought they were more advanced.)

2. An expert rider can beat the ABS stopping distance is some situations, cannot beat it in others. (I would have bet on the expert rider without ABS in all situations.)

3. There are differences in the smoothness and effectiveness of different ABS systems. The number of times per second that the system can cycle is key - the more, the better. (I can easily believe that. My Ford Taurus cars have awful ABS. When it cuts the brakes they stay off for way too long. You feel as helpless as if you were sliding on ice. I absolutely hate it. It has scared the bejeesus out of me on two occasions, and has almost caused one accident - I know I can do better without it. Anytime, anyplace. It is one reason that I have not been anxious to experience ABS on a motorcycle.) The Yamaha system that cycled 10 times per second sounded way better than the BMW system that cycled 7 times per second, because the bike front end wasn't bobbing up and down as much between brake & release cycles. Personally, I wouldn't want my front suspension going yo-yo on me in a panic stop.

I'm still not convinced that ABS is for me. But based on the article, I'd like to try a few ABS equipped bikes under similar controlled conditions. I'd predict this. There are some ABS systems I'd reject - and maybe a couple I would like. To just say that a motorcycle or scooter has ABS does not ring my chimes yet.
 

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ABS

I noticed that the article gave more kudos to the Japanese ABS systems.

I can relate to that. My neigbours who drive Detroit cages don't like their ABS much.
I don't like the ABS in my son's Saturn much. :(

But.. I drive an Acura 1.6 EL and my wife drives a Honda Civic, both with ABS.
They both cycle very quickly and only when necessary. :)

Saved me from one hairy situation where I knew I was going to slide into another car's door while turning one winter day. Didn't happen! I steered out of it while the ABS chatteringly did it's thing.(The other driver looked quite startled) :wink:

On four wheels, braking while turning is a definite advantage.

On two wheels, I'm with Paul. Aside from the impressive straight line stopping specs in the article, on plain old wet road, I don't see any real advantage to it.
 

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The ABS on my BMW is good, now that I know it is at the low end I mite look into a scooter with modern ABS. After all an accident is my definition an unforeseen and unplanned event.
And the older I get Welllllllllll lets just say I am not as fast as I was. :(
So why not try and stack the odds in my favor if I can. :)
 

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That was a real good article on Bike ABS.
No doubt that it is not effective when leaned - and never will I guess, thats physics for you.
However, we bikers know that serious braking can only be done when upright and straight so to speak.
One other thing the article was 1992 - guess some of the system modulation rates have risen in 12 years.
 
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