Okay I was not sure where to ask this question so I am posting here. I am still trying to talk the wife into a moto-scooter. I have just about decided if I do get one it will be a Burgman 650 but wanted to ask what are the advantages of the Burg 650 over the Silverwing 600? Other than the approx. 50cc difference? Both look pretty cool. Not alot out there as far as forums on the Swing so I would like to hear from the "experts" here. :wink:
Burgman vs. Silverwing
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Randy: I didn't spend a lot of time on the Silverwing; however, let me say this about that (my favorite Richard Nixon phrase). The SW is a perfectly OK machine. If I had never seen nor ridden a Burgman, I probably would have bought a SW. But I prefer the Burgman 650 because it's got double disc brakes in front, it's faster and has a smoother tranny and it rides smoother (perhaps due to more weight). I'm no techie and these are just seat of the pants subjective riding impressions.
I think it's better looking than the SW, but that's an eye-of-the-beholder judgement. I especially like the Burgie's rear end (the chrome trim line running horizontally through the tail lights), I also like the fact that the Burgie's so rare. Most folks have no idea what it is.
Hey, Gruntled. I got a kick out of your post. For me, this is a sailor's holiday.
I think it's better looking than the SW, but that's an eye-of-the-beholder judgement. I especially like the Burgie's rear end (the chrome trim line running horizontally through the tail lights), I also like the fact that the Burgie's so rare. Most folks have no idea what it is.
Hey, Gruntled. I got a kick out of your post. For me, this is a sailor's holiday.
This is for sure!!! Including some dealers. I called around to several Suzuki dealers in my area to see who had them and who did not. Well at least two of the ones I called had no idea what I was talking about. One guy said "...........uh I think we have one in stock" I asked "Is it a 400 or 650?" He then said "It is a 400" So I then asked how much in general they sell them for. He told me he would have to look it up and call me back. So I then told him to go ahead and get me the price on the 650 as well. He was taking my name and number down and said kinda talking out loud as he went "...... prices on the Suzuki Foreman 400 and 650" I said Burgman and he said oh yeah. Never did call me back :? So far no real good prices around my area mid 7 thousand range. Still working on my wife as well. :wink:
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But Roy, isn't this a use question? The SW is a twin cylinder 600 cc Burgman 250/400 - a do everything. The 650 is an accomplished tourer that can do a lot, but struggles on busy city commutes. I agree that the 650 is a more interesting, better designed, faster, better handling, better braked, more comfortable bike, but we are not really comparing apples with apples, are we?
If the intended use is city commuting, with touring at the weekends, the SW is a better quality package than the 400. If there will be less touring involved, and more town riding as the intended use, the 400 is the one to go for. If you don't intend to commute through busy cities and will tour a lot, then it's the 650.
Have you ever ridden an AN400?
If the intended use is city commuting, with touring at the weekends, the SW is a better quality package than the 400. If there will be less touring involved, and more town riding as the intended use, the 400 is the one to go for. If you don't intend to commute through busy cities and will tour a lot, then it's the 650.
Have you ever ridden an AN400?
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And... as far as I'm concerned, the 650 does just fine in the city. I just shake my head when I see comments about it being hard to push, awkward in traffic, etc. If you moved to the Burgman 650 from a full size motorcycle, it is an piece of cake to handle it in those situations. If you moved up from a Yamaha Riva, or never rode anything else, I suppose it can seem huge.
Folks, both the 650 & 400 can do it all reasonably well, both city and highway. The real considerations are more often cost, and physical size. If you are smaller, the 400 feels more comfortable. If you're long and lanky like me, the 650 is the better choice. So in some cases, that's all that really matters. If you are lucky enough to fit on both machines well, then you look at fuel economy vs extra power, cost vs features, etc.. And sometimes, it turns out, that the deciding factor is simply availability.
The 650 has an edge on the open road, and the 400 has an edge in heavy city traffic. But that's all it is. Neither machine "struggles" in either setting.
Folks, both the 650 & 400 can do it all reasonably well, both city and highway. The real considerations are more often cost, and physical size. If you are smaller, the 400 feels more comfortable. If you're long and lanky like me, the 650 is the better choice. So in some cases, that's all that really matters. If you are lucky enough to fit on both machines well, then you look at fuel economy vs extra power, cost vs features, etc.. And sometimes, it turns out, that the deciding factor is simply availability.
The 650 has an edge on the open road, and the 400 has an edge in heavy city traffic. But that's all it is. Neither machine "struggles" in either setting.
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I sat on both in the showroom (dealer had a used Silver Wing 600) and the 650 had significantly more legroom for me. I'm 6'-2" and 260# so room was a major consideration.
On the 650 I could stretch my legs out the floorboards where on the SW I couldn't really find a comfortable position. And, on the SW, the grips would hit my legs when turning lock-to-lock.
I haven't bought the Burgman yet but it won't be long.
On the 650 I could stretch my legs out the floorboards where on the SW I couldn't really find a comfortable position. And, on the SW, the grips would hit my legs when turning lock-to-lock.
I haven't bought the Burgman yet but it won't be long.
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Roy, I have 13,000 miles on my 2002 Reflex 250 ABS that I have used for the commute and in all weather touring - the similar AN250 does everything very well indeed, and bored out AN400 everything a bit better. Read my post a little more clearly and you may see that I said that the AN400 is an allrounder, and that the SW and especially 650 are more touring orientated. You are one that said that the 650 is better than the SW is every respect and now you are saying that the 400 is a tourer. You've got to choose one side of the fence my friend.
You say that you have "owned both" - am I to understand that you have owned a SW and AN400 and an AN650 or that you have owned an AN400, SW and never ridden an AN650? The advantages of the SW motorcycle frame over the AN400s competant but conventional swing-axel are evident on long higher-speed touring. Of course, as an ex-owner, you will know that.
You say that you have "owned both" - am I to understand that you have owned a SW and AN400 and an AN650 or that you have owned an AN400, SW and never ridden an AN650? The advantages of the SW motorcycle frame over the AN400s competant but conventional swing-axel are evident on long higher-speed touring. Of course, as an ex-owner, you will know that.
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Paul, where do you live? Which cities are you referring to riding through on an AN650?
I'm talking about congested cities where a 100cc scooter is the best way to cut through the queues, but a bit tiring on the back - which makes the 250/400/SW a good choice for comfort and being able to fit thourgh rows of queing cars. Your comments on "full sized mostorcycles" demonstrates that we are not talking aout the same thing - try travelling through congested cities in the manner you can do on a Reflex 250 or AN250/400 on the 650 and you will be minus mirrors very quickly. It has a simple problem with this application - width. I've seen one 650 rider who fitted standard mirrors to allow his 650 to fit though gaps a bit better, on the commute, but it doesn't do much for it's looks. Not many people in these cities commute to the office on R1150RTs - it's 100/250/400 scoots as far as the eye can see.
I take the 220kg 1100cc x11 loaded with sidebags and passenger (does this qualify as a "full sized motorcycle"?) out through the city at 6am on Saturday mornings on the way out to the mountains, but that's not quite the same thing as commuting, is it.
This again takes us back to use. This is the central question when choosing any motorcycle, is it not? No one motorcycle is objectively "better" than another. Wouldn't you agree?
I'm talking about congested cities where a 100cc scooter is the best way to cut through the queues, but a bit tiring on the back - which makes the 250/400/SW a good choice for comfort and being able to fit thourgh rows of queing cars. Your comments on "full sized mostorcycles" demonstrates that we are not talking aout the same thing - try travelling through congested cities in the manner you can do on a Reflex 250 or AN250/400 on the 650 and you will be minus mirrors very quickly. It has a simple problem with this application - width. I've seen one 650 rider who fitted standard mirrors to allow his 650 to fit though gaps a bit better, on the commute, but it doesn't do much for it's looks. Not many people in these cities commute to the office on R1150RTs - it's 100/250/400 scoots as far as the eye can see.
I take the 220kg 1100cc x11 loaded with sidebags and passenger (does this qualify as a "full sized motorcycle"?) out through the city at 6am on Saturday mornings on the way out to the mountains, but that's not quite the same thing as commuting, is it.
This again takes us back to use. This is the central question when choosing any motorcycle, is it not? No one motorcycle is objectively "better" than another. Wouldn't you agree?
I don't think we quite have the traffic density/congestion here that you have in Tokyo.
In the West, cities like Tucson, Phoenix, have a downtown area that is but a small percentage of the city's total incorporated area, the remainder being largely suburbs, where lane splitting and higher speeds are quite the norm.
In most situations, given what I just said, the AN650 would be the preferred machine due to its superior acceleration and higher attainable speeds.
In San Francisco, I might go for a Stella 150 or an Aprilia Scarabeo, something agile and lighter.
In Boston I'd take a cab.
In the West, cities like Tucson, Phoenix, have a downtown area that is but a small percentage of the city's total incorporated area, the remainder being largely suburbs, where lane splitting and higher speeds are quite the norm.
In most situations, given what I just said, the AN650 would be the preferred machine due to its superior acceleration and higher attainable speeds.
In San Francisco, I might go for a Stella 150 or an Aprilia Scarabeo, something agile and lighter.
In Boston I'd take a cab.
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Lycheed,
Tokyo, and some large European cities, are an extreme situation compared to most cities in the USA. I currently live in a fairly large mid-western city in the USA (population 400,000), and I formerly lived in Connecticut, which has a very high population density. There are very few cities in this country that would have the level of traffic congestion that you need to deal with (Los Angeles, Boston, and New York City are several I've visited - but I'd think that Tokyo differs significantly even from them). And in some parts of the world, the roads are narrower and the pavement is not as good as we are used to, which further complicates things.
Also, this is a country of suburbs - communities that spring up and spread out around the cities. Many of us find all that we need in the suburbs (employment, shopping, schools, restaurants, etc.), so we rarely have a need to go into the city itself. Surburban riding is perhaps more common in our commutes than actual city riding. In all my years of working (and I'm currently retired), I only had two jobs in cities - a total of three years. The rest of my jobs were in surburban communities. And even in those two cities, a machine like the 650 would have been fine.
So, I guess the bottom line is that I will never have occasion to ride my motorcycle or scooter in conditions like Tokyo traffic. Any city that I am likely to find myself in will not pose any problem for my current rides. That's why 250cc and smaller road machines are rare over here. And, unfortunately, why more people commute in huge SUVs than on two wheels.
Totally different parts of the World. If I over reacted to your comment regarding the AN650 struggling in city commuting, I apologize. You do contribute a lot of good insight to this forum, and I certainly didn't mean it as a personal attack.
Tokyo, and some large European cities, are an extreme situation compared to most cities in the USA. I currently live in a fairly large mid-western city in the USA (population 400,000), and I formerly lived in Connecticut, which has a very high population density. There are very few cities in this country that would have the level of traffic congestion that you need to deal with (Los Angeles, Boston, and New York City are several I've visited - but I'd think that Tokyo differs significantly even from them). And in some parts of the world, the roads are narrower and the pavement is not as good as we are used to, which further complicates things.
Also, this is a country of suburbs - communities that spring up and spread out around the cities. Many of us find all that we need in the suburbs (employment, shopping, schools, restaurants, etc.), so we rarely have a need to go into the city itself. Surburban riding is perhaps more common in our commutes than actual city riding. In all my years of working (and I'm currently retired), I only had two jobs in cities - a total of three years. The rest of my jobs were in surburban communities. And even in those two cities, a machine like the 650 would have been fine.
So, I guess the bottom line is that I will never have occasion to ride my motorcycle or scooter in conditions like Tokyo traffic. Any city that I am likely to find myself in will not pose any problem for my current rides. That's why 250cc and smaller road machines are rare over here. And, unfortunately, why more people commute in huge SUVs than on two wheels.
Totally different parts of the World. If I over reacted to your comment regarding the AN650 struggling in city commuting, I apologize. You do contribute a lot of good insight to this forum, and I certainly didn't mean it as a personal attack.
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Paul,
You contribute a lot of interesting reading to this forum, too, and I often find myself nodding when I read your posts. I too am am a motorcycle enthusiast, and a Skywave (Burgman) enthusiast, and find it a bit painful if people criticise the machine where I felt that it wasn't warranted, so can probably understand why you reacted as you did initially.
My job demans that I travel quite a lot, and I've spent time on the west coast and agree with your and Ted's accounts of the west and mid-west. I was largely in San Fransisco and Los Angeles when we were going though an expansion period in the late 1990s, and also spent time in New York. As you suggest, Tokyo is a different story to even these congested US cities, but some European cities - especially London - make Tokyo's roads feel like a highway. At least you can filter through the queues in Tokyo - everybody uses the efficient public transport system, so it's only commercial vehicles, taxis and motorcycles on the road on weekdays, anyway. In London unles you are riding an SR125 or smaller, you are going to queue with the cars. There are few gaps to filter through, and frustrated motorists will block your path if they can.
The Suzuki Skywave(Burgman) AN250/400, Honda Forza (Relfex) and Yamaha Majesty series were predominantly designed as single market machines - for the Japan market, and the Japan context city riding, with light touring at the weekend. They don't even advertise them as scooters now - they advertsie them as "open two seaters". Suzuki bored out the AN250 to make the AN400 largely for export but it isnt' a truly separate machine to the 250 - and doesn't need to be as the An250 is such a great base. However, the SW and AN650 were designed from the groud up with that little bit more grunt, stability, and carry space for the more open roads of the Japanese countryside and for the foreign markets with the context you have described.
Here, for many people, the big-scooter replaces the need for a car (due to the cost of parking spaces eg 400USD per month at my apartment) and even in the suburbs where parking spaces are cheap (100USD per month) the annual tax on a car make a big scooter attractive. (That's also why they have tax exempt "microcars" here.) The bigger engines of the 650 and SW allow these machines to be real "do everythings" as they can cruise down the highway at an indicated 180km/h without a wobble, and without the engine being near the redline. This speed is significant here, as this is the speed that all vehicles are limited to in Japan, so it gives the feeling that these GT scooter are not low power machines.
As you say, a totally different context.
My advice to any potential buyer is: buy whichever one tickles your fancy. The competition is so stiff now in Japan, and to a lesser extent Italy, that there are no "bad" bikes in the current line-up. Test ride everything, and get what feels good and matches your needs. No choice made after that process will be a wrong one.
You contribute a lot of interesting reading to this forum, too, and I often find myself nodding when I read your posts. I too am am a motorcycle enthusiast, and a Skywave (Burgman) enthusiast, and find it a bit painful if people criticise the machine where I felt that it wasn't warranted, so can probably understand why you reacted as you did initially.
My job demans that I travel quite a lot, and I've spent time on the west coast and agree with your and Ted's accounts of the west and mid-west. I was largely in San Fransisco and Los Angeles when we were going though an expansion period in the late 1990s, and also spent time in New York. As you suggest, Tokyo is a different story to even these congested US cities, but some European cities - especially London - make Tokyo's roads feel like a highway. At least you can filter through the queues in Tokyo - everybody uses the efficient public transport system, so it's only commercial vehicles, taxis and motorcycles on the road on weekdays, anyway. In London unles you are riding an SR125 or smaller, you are going to queue with the cars. There are few gaps to filter through, and frustrated motorists will block your path if they can.
The Suzuki Skywave(Burgman) AN250/400, Honda Forza (Relfex) and Yamaha Majesty series were predominantly designed as single market machines - for the Japan market, and the Japan context city riding, with light touring at the weekend. They don't even advertise them as scooters now - they advertsie them as "open two seaters". Suzuki bored out the AN250 to make the AN400 largely for export but it isnt' a truly separate machine to the 250 - and doesn't need to be as the An250 is such a great base. However, the SW and AN650 were designed from the groud up with that little bit more grunt, stability, and carry space for the more open roads of the Japanese countryside and for the foreign markets with the context you have described.
Here, for many people, the big-scooter replaces the need for a car (due to the cost of parking spaces eg 400USD per month at my apartment) and even in the suburbs where parking spaces are cheap (100USD per month) the annual tax on a car make a big scooter attractive. (That's also why they have tax exempt "microcars" here.) The bigger engines of the 650 and SW allow these machines to be real "do everythings" as they can cruise down the highway at an indicated 180km/h without a wobble, and without the engine being near the redline. This speed is significant here, as this is the speed that all vehicles are limited to in Japan, so it gives the feeling that these GT scooter are not low power machines.
As you say, a totally different context.
My advice to any potential buyer is: buy whichever one tickles your fancy. The competition is so stiff now in Japan, and to a lesser extent Italy, that there are no "bad" bikes in the current line-up. Test ride everything, and get what feels good and matches your needs. No choice made after that process will be a wrong one.
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