Suzuki Burgman USA Forum banner

1 - 11 of 11 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Does anyone know if we have the combination braking system on the 650? And if not? Why not? BMW has gone to this system and it sounds like every bike should have it. I see the 400 burg has it. If you have a 400 burg, do you like it? Is it something worth having? Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
The standard AN650 does not have the combination brake system. In 2004 there will be a model (AN650 Executive) with ABS.
I am not shure that it operates as on the AN400 (left brake lever activates front and back brakes, right brake lever activates the front brake) or as on the BMW (right brake lever activates front and back brakes).

Currently, I own an AN400. The combination brake is very effective in preventing the brakes to lock, at least on dry roads. Therefore I decided that I would never buy another motor cycle without at last a combi brake. That's why I ordered the AN650 Executive and not the standard model.
Hopefully, my new scooter is delevered in February.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
394 Posts
Innovation is good!

Covert said:
Eww, see- this topic is the kind that gets my goat a little bit. Linked brakes are the bane of experienced riders...
I appreciate where Covert is coming from on this issue and certainly understand where someone with the depth of experience he has might prefer traditional motorcycle braking systems over linked or ABS brakes. Respectfully though I must disagree with at least one of the points he raises.

Covert said:
...Automatic transmissions in cars enabled a great many more people to just hop in, stick it in drive and stomp the gas. Frankly, a great many more people should not be behind the wheel. It dumbed the experience down, and yes, opened the door for more people to drive, but those people were less-skilled as a result. The last thing we need are even MORE unskilled motorcycle riders out there, and ABS, fuel injection, cruise control, GPS, and electric start have, every time, notched down the intellectual requirements of riding. That is not always in our best interest...
Covert is correct that some technical innovations do bring more people to motorcycling. Automatic transmission and electric starters in particular, as he eloquently puts it, opened the door for more people, but I don’t believe that that in itself means that it “dumbs down” the experience and leads to less-skilled riders, at least not in a general sense. To consider this we have to define what we are looking for.

First off, we tend to equate less-skilled to less-safe, so that is the measure I shall use.

All people starting out learning to drive any vehicle start as unskilled. Hopefully with effort and experience they increase their skills and become better drivers. So there are two categories of ‘less-skilled’ riders, those new to two-wheeling and those who’s riding skills fail to improve significantly. As already stated, some innovations do invite more people to the party, so yes this means there are more less-skilled riders out there. Of course, more riders over time leads to more experienced rider too. This means the percentage of skilled to un-skilled riders remains about the same.

The question remains, does technical innovations increase the number of people who’s riding skills remain poor and are therefore less-safe?

The art of motorcycle riding is one of balance, coordination, knowledge, technique, and timing. Most of technological innovations mentioned can be eliminated as they don’t affect these attributes of riding skill. GPS units, fuel injection, and electric starters do not appreciably play a part either way to good riding skills. (Though they can contribute to good rides. :D ) Cruise control, if used effectively, still requires you to balance, coordinate what you are doing, have an understanding of riding, and actual necessitates having additional technique and good timing for knowing when and how to engage and disengage it. That leaves us with brakes, linked and ABS, and automatic transmissions.

Automatic transmissions do reduce the knowledge one needs to ride. Heck I rode my Elite 250 for four years before learning how to shift a conventional motorcycle transmission. It also reduces the need to coordinate shifting or to time it just right. However, that also meant that I could concentrate on the road and vehicles around me. It allowed me a little more freedom to hone the other skills involved in riding a two-wheel motorized vehicle. This made me a better rider, not worse one. I’d have to say that there is nothing inherent with an automatic transmission that makes people less-safe in riding.

This brings us back to brakes. I freely admit that with Covert’s experience he is likely better prepared to handle various braking situations on his motorcycle than those who do not have that experience. I’m willing to bet Covert is able to handle most braking situations as good as, if not better than, a less experienced person using ABS brakes. However, ABS and even linked brakes in the hands on a less experienced person will reduce the difference in most situations between them stopping safely and an extremely experienced motorcyclist doing likewise. So again we have a condition where the less-skilled rider is not less-safe, but instead more safe in most situations by using the improvement in technology.

In summation, while Covert is correct that technical innovations can reduce the opportunity to develop some skills, it does not necessarily mean that it makes riders less safe, nor does it adversely affect the enjoyment of the riding experience.

Obviously, this is only my opinion. Your mileage may vary. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
100 Posts
braking

my brakes are linked in my brain. i practice 80mph panic stops. i practice just about everything you can do on a scooter or bike. now, let's have a beer and throw our helmets away. sound stupid? so does anything that removes any degree of skill required to operate a bike. to me anyways.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Covert said:
Eww, see- this topic is the kind that gets my goat a little bit. Linked brakes are the bane of experienced riders. There are times (much more often than you realize) when the LAST thing you want is to squeeze the front brake lever and get some rear brake with it, and vice versa. If you ever have to come to a stop on gravel, the front brake is best avoided, and linked brakes will not allow that.

And "linked" does not equal "ABS" just so you don't get any false hopes. All that does is apply both brakes FOR you because most people are (to the manufacturer's way of thinking) too dang stupid to apply both brakes themselves, so here... we'll FORCE you to do it. Generally, and this is only GENERALLY, using both brakes will settle the bike (rear) while providing safer, more purposeful deceleration (front). However... you can use the front brake on some bikes well enough that your rear tire comes off of the ground, rendering the rear brake utterly useless. In the case of applying rear brake in that situation, you've guaranteed yourself a lockup situation.
As ABS prevents the brakes to lock, I should say that front and back brakes can be linked safely. I admit however that I am reluctant to try an emergency stop on gravel when I have got my AN650 ABS .

Covert said:
You should NEVER have to worry about "locking your brakes" if you've practiced your braking even a little bit.
This I doubt. I think that a lot of special practicing is required for correct braking in panic situations. It is in these situations that ABS can save the life of a less experienced rider, because:
- ABS prevents the brakes to lock in the first place
- Riders will brake harder because they know that the brakes cannot lock.

On a bike with conventional brakes, less experienced riders in a panic situation brake not as hard as they could have, because they fear the front brake to lock.
Maybe this is true even for Covert, as he has never locked a wheel since 1989.

For this reason authorities in Germany have started a campaign to promote ABS on motorcycles.
Authorities and many people in the Netherlands -where I live- think that everything on two wheels that has a motor is too dangerous and should be discouraged if not prohibited. So no attention is payed to motorcycle safety at all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
394 Posts
Skill and a Safety Net

Covert said:
...I'm not saying "an automatic transmission makes you stupid" as much as I'm saying that since bikes are becoming more point-and-shoot, more untrained, overconfident people are getting into the sport...
Agreed. Confidence is great, overconfidence is dangerous. Whether the rider be a veteran of many years or a newbie to the scooter/cycle scene.
Covert said:
... I've been asked the following question four times now as a new bike was delivered to the customer and he was about to ride off on it: "...now, this is the clutch, right?" as he patted one of the levers...
Now that IS frightening. :shock:

You get no argument from me that there are those who seek the image of motorcycling that should never get on a bike. And that is not limited to those who choose ABS equipped machines or twist-n-go scoots. I could name a number of people who found they had the bucks and though they never had ridden before, the went out and bought big ol’, rough-tough cruisers, manual transmission, standard brakes and all. When I suggested the Motorcycle Safety Foundation’s Basic Riders Course, they scoffed. They were too cool for school. 8) Now I fear for them and anyone riding near them. They may be fine, they may develop the skills to be safe cyclists, but I’d put money down that at least half of them won’t.

Covert said:
...ABS fails a LOT. You may stop a million times and think everything's fine, but braking and braking-with-ABS-activated are separate things. I've ridden hundreds of ABS-equipped bikes but never used ABS. ABS is like a parachute. You shouldn't even get to ABS unless something very bad happens, and then it's just a safety net...
Covert, I certainly believe you about ABS failing. I concur that while it is nice to have the safety net of ABS should the need arise, skillful riding will limit the circumstances where ABS brakes are engaged.

On a personal note, my last four cars all had ABS brakes, I live in the land of snow and ice called Minnesota, and yet I can count on one hand the number of times I had to engage the Antilock Brakes System. I pay attention, plan ahead, and leave plenty of room to maneuver and brake. The results? No accidents in twenty years and very, very few times where I needed to come to a ‘panic stop’.

Covert said:
...As a BMW Master Tech who has torn the new IntegralABS system apart quite a few times- yes, it's a great system. But it breaks. When it breaks, it's worthless. Do not, please, trust in software to make up for incomplete training. GPS is great. GPS breaks. Batteries die. Satellites don't reach everywhere. Learn to read a map. Cell phones are great. Carry 35 cents with you (or a calling card). Credit cards buy lots of gas. Armpit, Alabama gas stations take cash only...
Sound advice, my friend. Sound advice. :wink:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
BertvL said:
The standard AN650 does not have the combination brake system. In 2004 there will be a model (AN650 Executive) with ABS.
I am not shure that it operates as on the AN400 (left brake lever activates front and back brakes, right brake lever activates the front brake) or as on the BMW (right brake lever activates front and back brakes).

Currently, I own an AN400. The combination brake is very effective in preventing the brakes to lock, at least on dry roads. Therefore I decided that I would never buy another motor cycle without at last a combi brake. That's why I ordered the AN650 Executive and not the standard model.
Hopefully, my new scooter is delevered in February.
This message triggered a lot of reactions about linked brakes. In the mean time, the first AN650 executive ABS models have been delivered to their customers in the Netherlands and in Belgium. I understand that front and back brakes are NOT linked.
 
1 - 11 of 11 Posts
Top