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Discussion Starter #1
Has anyone heard about this? I saw it on a Polish Web site, and the only thing I could glean was that it's intended for a 2008 release, and something about competing for assembly space with the C1.



If it comes to pass, and if they sell in the US, I'd buy one. I think it looks really sharp.
 

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I read that they were developing the C8 but have not seen anything on it since. I've also read (possibly rumor) that BMW has stopped production of the C1.
 

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Yes, Bill, I think you're right about the demise of the wacky C1.

Thanks for the pic, Brian. I too saw the BMW 850 article on the Polish site. I've no doubt that it would be a fine beast, and have been wondering whether it would use the Piaggio/Aprilia 850cc engine that has been the subject of recent trials or whether it would settle for an existing BMW mill such as the 850cc boxer engine.

Does anybody know? (My Polish is non-existent :) )

Can't say that I like the 850's frontal treatment very much. IMHO it seems to be the result of the same aberration that gave birth to the R1200CL, but then I suppose BMW has always shown design courage on their new P2Ws.
 

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chiefkeefe said:
I've no doubt that it would be a fine beast, and have been wondering whether it would use the Piaggio/Aprilia 850cc engine that has been the subject of recent trials or whether it would settle for an existing BMW mill such as the 850cc boxer engine.
I wish we could get those 850cc BMW's over here in the States. All we have are the extremes -- either the overpriced 650 thumper or the overpowered 1200cc boxers and inline fours. No happy medium.

I don't think they could use a boxer engine on a scooter. Mounted so low, you'd be scraping the heads on every corner.
 

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If they do release it here, I hope they change the styling. I think it looks terrible :( Not even an 850cc engine would make me purchase it.
 

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There was a guy at scootercade with a BMW C2. With the factory options he had on it the cost was right up there with a Burgman 650. I figure that this 850 with proper accessories could run between $12,000 - $15,000 here in the USA (especially with the current weak dollar). They would find very few buyers for a scooter that expensive in this country.
 

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frugality said:
I wish we could get those 850cc BMW's over here in the States. All we have are the extremes -- either the overpriced 650 thumper or the overpowered 1200cc boxers and inline fours. No happy medium..
Back when I couldn't afford them they had plenty of bikes I wanted. (I lusted after a R-69 for years.) Now that I can afford them they have nothing I want. Their smallest bike (except for the 650 single) is far larger than what I want.
Moto-Guzzi has a 750 Nevada that is just perfect but there are no dealers within a reasonable distance plus I have heard nothing but bad stories about the factory support.
 

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Gruntled, I like the Guzzi's also and rode one of the 750 Brava's early last year. Found it rather enemic. Later got an old 850T and played with it a bit but found that I prefer/need more luxury than the old machine could provide. I tell you tho, when you rolled the throttle on that ole critter it would haul a..! Considered a new one, but like you said, the factory support is horrible to non=existant.
 

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I kinda like it, I guess it's just a concept at this stage and the design will change a fair bit if they're planning on a 2008 launch.
Does go to show that larger capacity Scooters are begining to get noticed if BMW are thinking about them, as someone has mentioned in an earlier thread, we are the new wave :)
I could see a nice BMW stable if I could just win the lottery, one of those mega scoots for touring and a playbike from HPN, either the Sports or the Baja http://www.hpn.de/english/motorraeder.html



Dave
 

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ted clement said:
...Found it rather enemic....
The manufacturer would probably be chagrined at your analysis, though certain parts of the medical community might suggest their patients use one regularly if they are otherwise irregular. So to speak.

**** typos.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
james_eric said:
[quote="ted clement":2xh2nbxi]...Found it rather enemic....
The manufacturer would probably be chagrined at your analysis, though certain parts of the medical community might suggest their patients use one regularly if they are otherwise irregular. So to speak.

**** typos.[/quote:2xh2nbxi]
I suspect Ted Clement meant "anemic," but what did you mean?

"Emetic" maybe? If so, they're not used for irregularity, but for poisoning, drug overdoses, etc. Emetics, like syrup of ipecac (Cephaelis ipecacuanha), are used to induce vomiting.

Or maybe you meant "enema." Well, yes, that could be used for irregularity, but I'm sure that's not what Ted had in mind either. He was only one letter off on anemic, while "enemic" and "enema" are three letters different.

But I digress. :wink:

--Brian "certain part of the medical community" Owens
Former EMT and LMP, Current master of thread drift.
 

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-ic suffix denotes attributive nature of a noun root. So it is, you see, neither one letter off nor three. Admittedly this is, as Humpty Dumpty identified such things, a portmanteau word. Obviously Ted meant anemic. I plucked the hapless typo out of context (see ellipsis marks before and after) for a perversely jovial remark. Word people are weird that way.

You do medical, I do English grammar. We both enjoy Burgmans--it's all good. I find my AN400 to be neither anemic nor enemic, though I opine that if more people just sat back, rolled the throttle, and put their feet up to cruise, the world would feel somewhat less constipated.
 

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thread drift

Brian,

Is that anything like a snow drift but consisting of threads like a giant dust-bunny or something else entirely? Anyway, your post made me lol :lol:.

Eric
 

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Looks a whole lot like the Burgman, just not as good. Unless the real thing looks a lot better than a Burg, I believe I'll stick with what I have.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
james_eric said:
-ic suffix denotes attributive nature of a noun root. So it is, you see, neither one letter off nor three. Admittedly this is, as Humpty Dumpty identified such things, a portmanteau word.
As a budding English teacher in training (TESOL), I find that -- unlike Lewis Carroll and James Joyce -- I am not fond of creating portmanteaux on the spur of the moment; finding that they tend to obfuscate more than elucidate. Eschew obfuscation, say I.

james_eric said:
...You do medical, I do English grammar. We both enjoy Burgmans--it's all good. I find my AN400 to be neither anemic nor enemic, though I opine that if more people just sat back, rolled the throttle, and put their feet up to cruise, the world would feel somewhat less constipated.
Ah, the Burgman lifestyle. Escape the smog on our stroft machines, and enjoy the headiful smights. :wink:

ekp said:
Brian [Master of Thread Drift],

Is that anything like a snow drift but consisting of threads like a giant dust-bunny or something else entirely? Anyway, your post made me lol :lol:.

Eric
Well, it is like a snow drift in that, once I start pulling a thread off topic (such as this one, which was originally about the BMW 850 but has drifted into a discussion of the English langauge, Jabberwockyesque word merging, and medicinal herb extracts), an avalanche of off topic posts is likely to follow.

On the other hand, it's like dust bunnies in that many readers would just as soon sweep me under the carpet and forget about me, as pay me any mind.

I do restrain myself somewhat on this forum, though. On another forum I belong to I'm known as somewhat of a "Grammar Nazi" for frequently railing against the abominations that some people try to pass off as English.

I'm much more laid-back here. 8)
 

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Discussion Starter #16
jkrerol15 said:
Looks a whole lot like the Burgman, just not as good. Unless the real thing looks a lot better than a Burg, I believe I'll stick with what I have.
Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.

I prefer the nose of the AN650 to this BMW, but from the step-through rearward I prefer the Beemer.

I like the raised passenger's footboards, and I love the look of the trunk/fender sections.

To me the Burgmans' up-angled fenders look out of place on a touring machine; like Suzuki couldn't make up their minds whether these were cruising/touring scooters or sports bikes.

I know a lot of people would disagree. Ain't diversity int'resting?
 

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BMW is hurting because the C1 project didn't work (the car drivers it was marketed to didn't buy it, serious commuters that wear protective clothing couldn't see the merit over the weight penalty), and the AN650 and Silverwing are eroding their R-series sales: 1150cc, 240kgs, and a true 60hp within the comfortable rev-range don’t make for the most aggressive motorcycle. The Rs do handle however, are comfortable for passenger and rider, and are designed from the start to accommodate hard luggage. That's a spec sheet that one could easily write for the SilverWing 600 or AN650. Needless to say, the R1150RTs nearest competitor is the AN650. I am a fan of both.

Similarly, if anyone here has ridden the K1200LT, you will know that even ridden solo it is extremely underpowered and no-doubt outperformed by the AN650. I suspect that they know that with electronic CVT they can make a heavy (250kg) 850cc tourer perform as well as their 1150/1200cc conventional tourers.

If BMW is planning for an 850cc mill, they will probably be planning to use the R engine – tips of the engine cases exposed would be great if possible. 650cc would have indicated the F650 single. This tells us that unlike the Italians, they will try to take the Big Three head on, not play one level below i.e., 2cyl engine in the frame as opposed to single cylinder engine on the swing-arm. It will have the corporate face, and will sell at a considerable margin above the ANxxx to those that believe that German products are inherently better than Japanese items.

I personally think it’s a risk that they will not embark on easily, as:
1. Great as it is, the AN650 ain't selling that much – largely due to its generous wind protection limiting it’s effectiveness in congested cities, where scooter sales are strongest. An 850 would also suffer this problem, so it’s not clear whether the project is feasible or not.
2. It will directly compete with their own R tourers – with the STX1300/FJR1300/AN650 doing a very good job of that at the moment, they may not want to increase the competition. Look what happened to sales of their K-series once the R was restyled.
3. They have already had their fingers burnt with the C1, and won’t want to see yet more feet first two-wheelers gathering dust in their car showrooms.

I look forward to seeing what happens.
 

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Well put, lycheed.

FWIW, my shortlist comprised the R1150RT and the AN650. I had a very long test ride of the former and a relatively short test ride of the Burger (courtesy of a very kind BMW customer who happened to ride up as I was pondering the derisory trade-in offer I'd just been made for my X9).

I've been a member of the BMW Club (UK) for about 14 years and have owned 5 BMWs, so felt that I was already au fait with the BMW foibles, but the Burger was soooooooo much superior in every respect, and instantly enjoyable too. Frankly, I was startled into buying 'Arnie'. :eek:

After just two rides I'm hooked.
 

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lycheed said:
Similarly, if anyone here has ridden the K1200LT, you will know that even ridden solo it is extremely underpowered and no-doubt outperformed by the AN650. I suspect that they know that with electronic CVT they can make a heavy (250kg) 850cc tourer perform as well as their 1150/1200cc conventional tourers.
Underpowered and outperformed in what way? Certainly not in the standard raw performance numbers, where the K12LT crushes the Burgman 650. And even from a handling standpoint, I sincerely doubt it. The K12LT is an amazingly stable, planted platform even when pushed through sporting roads. And I've personally chased one at speeds well into triple digits through some gorgeous, sweeping mountain roads. A Burgman 650 couldn't do it because we were exceeding its top speed.

If BMW is planning for an 850cc mill, they will probably be planning to use the R engine – tips of the engine cases exposed would be great if possible. 650cc would have indicated the F650 single. This tells us that unlike the Italians, they will try to take the Big Three head on, not play one level below i.e., 2cyl engine in the frame as opposed to single cylinder engine on the swing-arm. It will have the corporate face, and will sell at a considerable margin above the ANxxx to those that believe that German products are inherently better than Japanese items.
Except that BMW has no such engine, and by most all accounts, has no intention of building a smaller displacement "hexhead". It's important to remember that the Rotax-derived 650 in the F650 series came out of co-development with Aprilia, and most speculation has been that BMW has again been working with Aprilia to develop the replacement. The Aprilia Pegaso and the F650's are closely related. This engine has been rumored to be a v-twin for some time, and most recently, some potential test mules have been spotted in the wild. It's tough to be entirely sure; those test mules in obviously fake tupperware are mostly thought to be Beemers because the sidecases they're sporting are straight off the new K1200S.

It seems pretty unlikely to me, too. The image shown in this thread looks like so many concept photos commissioned by the magazines to describe what they think might someday arrive. I can't read the date next to the signature, so I can't get an idea of how old this is. But it appears they've taken the R1200CL front-end, including the windscreen, both of which are all but defunct now. None of the new bikes (R1200GS, R1200RT, K1200S, or R1200ST, or even the recently cosmetically enhances K1200LT) have a front-end that looks anything like that image.

BMW's don't artificially sell above the competition. Compare the European prices to the competition (which doesn't include the Burgman 650), and the RT is nearly universally lower than either the FJR or the ST1300. The new R1200RT offers more touring amenities, and fully decked out, it will probably cost more. Of course, the others come nowhere near it in terms of features. It's only in countries where the Euro is strong relative to the local currency where BMW's are universally more expensive.

That said, BMW is a small motorcycle maker launching 3 to 5 new models this year. For BMW, that's incredible. The notion of another attempt to break into the scooter market, which is already pretty small and crowded, seems pretty unlikely. The C1 was clearly an attempt to try to do something different, and it failed. They don't have a lot to add to the scooter market, just as they don't have anything to add to the sportbike market. You'll note they don't even try to compete in the sportbike arena.

Time will tell, of course. However, I would expect the maxi-scooter market would have to be sufficiently larger before a BMW entry would be seen. (I'll concede that our most reliable source in the US of BMW Motorrad intel, OTL, does not flat-out reject the possibility, however.)

Greg
 

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Thanks Chief.

Those Rs are certainly good bikes. I had a good long look at the R1150 Rockster, GS as well as the RT, such is my love of the noise of the Boxer engine and its style – the aesthetics of the exhaust routing are only matched by Guzzi with their V11 in particular. (Looking at your stable, you know both these factories pretty well). However, 600km of test riding later, I couldn't reconcile myself to purchase an R after having ridden the STX1300 and AN650, the latter of which was available at half the cost of the RT. Much like you, I’m convinced that it’s the better package.

I myself like Pearl White on a bodied machine – car or scooter – so had to search for 3 weeks for one of the last few remaining unregistered-unused 2002 models, the only year that white was offered in Japan.

**** I love this bike.

Lycheed
 
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