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Discussion Starter #1
Millions of people all over the world ride like this.



It's the norm not the exception.

I on occasion will do the same on the Burgman or the KLR ( going swimming ).

Now of course at speed and distance or hitting the twists or off road I'm dressed with appropriate gear ( I'm not ATGATT ).

Every one of us see the cruiser boys in tshirts and no helmets.
Now squids are another species...seriously stupid those wankers. Hot bikes, no protection.

But are we a bit or a lot nannying ourselves??

Are our drivers in North America that much worse?
 

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Hey, I wear all my gear all the time (gloves, tee shirt, jeans and boots). I do wear a helmet every time I ride though. I even wear one of my motorcycle jackets if it isn't too hot here. Let the weather go above 90 and I leave the jacket in the closet. Not a good example for sure, but what can I say? It has worked for me for over 50 years of riding. I usually won't admit this on any of the forums nowadays, but what the **** - I am feeling somewhat honest tonight.
 

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Until a couple of years ago I never had any gear , but I do now . Come summer unless I'm traveling at high speeds other than a helmet I don't use it . 50+ years and to date no road rash (knock on wood) .

TheReaper!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
That's three us with no road rash and similar habits and half a century of riding.
Gone down off pavement but that sort of goes with the territory.

I must admit the knee pads are so easy I tend to wear them always.
Gloves are optional especially when I'm photographing
 

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most people will ride as shown in the picture until they go down and got seriously injured, IHMO its not about how taught you are, its about how smart you're. I've seen ladies as the one in the picture going down in Paris, and let me tell you they do not look as fancy after they got road rash, broken ankle and blood all over them.

On a side note, you need to take into account how much you value yourself and for us two wheelers, most of the time accidents dont happen because of us, it's generally caused by third players, so our riding skills will reduce the risk but only that.

How much money will it mean if you down and got a broken hand, ankle or back?, if that math doesn't shed any light then, go riding with flip flops.

There are two kind of motorcyclists those show fell and those who will fall.
 

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Dress for the crash not for the ride, that's what I do. Sure who wouldn,t like to ride in shorts and flipflops on a nice warm evening. Purchase the best gear you can afford and wear it every time you ride.
 

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Overly risk adverse in N. America? Eh, I'd say we're in middle. I'm guessing Europe has a lot stronger laws regarding helmets, safety equipment and such. While India, China, etc, not so much.

I think it also a matter of perspective, we (Burgman riders), are generally old, wiser, wealthier and don't rebound from falls like we used to. So yes, we are wisely more risk adverse and suit up because of it. And more than likely our friends and riding buddies are the same. So from our perspective, it might seem few take any risks nowadays.

But I run a scooter group and can tell you there's absolutely no shortage of people who do. There are lots of women wearing sundresses, guys in t-shirts, shorts, and flip-flops. I'm sure they'd be helmetless if it wasn't the law here. And that doesn't even start on the real idiots; the sport bikers who ride to excess and those that drink and ride at every opportunity.

So no, we're no too risk adverse. You can find dumb people the world round. You need look no further than Gwyneth Paltrow picking up her kid as school.

View attachment 35569
 

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Discussion Starter #8
there are two kind of motorcyclists those show fell and those who will fall.
wrong...you have in the first three posters with 150 years of riding between them without a road crash.

Do as you like...dont preach to others because bottom line the VAST majority of riders do not crash.

Sure - a low speed fall over is a plague for new riders but that's not a gear requirement issue.
Ride the twists hard?? ....then sure it makes sense to wear good gear tho I suspect we ride faster/harder geared up.
I ride for the fun not the fall...too many riders getting obsessive and timid with the kind of "you are going to fall off" mantra.

To ride you need confidence...I've seen pilots that will never be approved for solo because they lack the confidence. The instructors know they will make pilots that are dangerous to themselves and others.
Timidity can be as dangerous as over confidence....don't move into traffic fast enough, don't assert your rights at a stop sign, don't enforce your space around you....the list is long.

Why keep repeating a bit of nonsense that is simply untrue for road riding. :rolleyes:

Off road...sure...you push yourself and you fall off, pick up the bike and get moving....broken clutch cable or not...it's good practice. :D
 

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I wear my gear all the time period. There are so many choices in protective gear nowadays that you can certainly find gear that will suit every type of weather or riding you do. I've been in two accidents where I was as always being very careful with my riding, but the drivers that hit me were not. Both were not paying attention and used the old excuse of "I didn't see you there". (Both times I had a bright orange helmet and and bright orange bike) The other two times I went down were because of crap on the road 1st time was water and the second was sand/gravel. Again I was being very careful and was even going slow on the turns when the bike slid out from under me before I knew what was happening. Bottom line is everyone has the right to ride the way they wish to ride and wear what they like to wear when riding. However those of us that wear our gear all the time are confident that when that day comes that we go down, we'll sustain less road rash and injuries because of our gear.
 

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I crashed my first bike, a 160 Ducati, in 1970. I was doing about 55, wearing a T-shirt, shorts and sneakers. Besides the broken arm and concussion, I lost a LOT of skin, it hurt badly for two months, and I still have a few scars from it.

Now, 90% of the time, I'll wear Draggin jeans, a padded jacket (perforated textile in the hot weather), boots, gloves and a good helmet. On the occasional hot summer Tennessee evening, I'll go out on the back roads (I live in a rural area), without the jacket and boots. But I always feel a little nervous doing it. I also enjoy the feel of the soft humid air on my skin. To me, it's worth the slight risk in those circumstances.
 

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There are only two times when I ride without full gear. The first is at work going from one building to another{I work at a large church with several buildings on the campus}. In the parking lot at 10-15mph I figure I am safe enough. The other time is after doing a service on my rides. I make sure there are no odd noises but I only cruise around the block a time or two getting up to 30mph. Otherwise I wear all my gear which is a motorcycle jacket with armor, full helmet, long pants, closed toe shoes and gloves. I have seen too many riders injured or killed due to little or no gear but also seen those who crashed with gear and walked away.

I would say Americans are more risky than Europeans in regards to gear. Most of the good gear brands are from Europe and must sell well there or they wouldn't exist. Asian riders on the other hand seem to ride very riskily from what I have seen, especially the under-developed parts of Asia. What makes the European riders seem like they are taking more risk is how many more of them there are. The average American town has a dozen or so bikes running around at any given time but in some European towns they outnumber the cars.

The gal riding the Vespa looks nice from the back but just one little incident and she may look like one of the living dead! For instance those shoes of hers wouldn't give much protection at all.

 

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I'm not sure if the question is the right one. My thoughts are that most people that don't use their vehicle as a commuter vehicle don't respect the ride. I think that most people are weekend warriors who ride for leisure and think of their bikes as toys or recreational vehicles. I ride daily except on ice or more than 1 inch of snow. I've gone down on ice slow speed and my gear saved me from road rash. In this country, we have a right to act regardless of the consequences.

Happy New Year!
 

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Dang, that pic is gruesome. I think that a motorcycle training course should be madatory for licensing and pics like this ought to be shown to educate riders on the consequences. It's stuff like this and stories from the crypt from other riders that shape my own choices and had steered me to an ATGATT mentality. This is how we learn; we share the stories. Oldest educational system in the history of the world.
 

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That photo looks like it was taken in a med school anatomy class or during an autopsy. Maybe special reconstructive surgery? Severe acid or base exposure? Blood should be pouring out under pressure, right? It seems doubtful that accidental sliding could fillet the flesh around the foot bones so accurately.:confused:

Considering how many people in North America drive while doing any number of activities (without wearing a seatbelt), I don't think people are risk adverse at all. For the most part, brief riding attire is the norm in Toronto, regardless of the model of scooter or motorcycle. I've seen guys on stretched Busas wearing flip-flops and gals on Vespas with heels.

It's anecdotal, but when a driver goes out of his way to applaud how sensibly prepared you are (while waiting at a stoplight) because you're wearing a helmet AND jacket, then it becomes obvious what the score is. I was feeling a bit daring at the time too, since I was without gloves or boots.

Motorcycle and then model specific forums are a very specific subset of people who care about this sort of stuff. The average person doesn't know or care and won't worry until something happens. In the wider world, even Mac Doc would likely be seen as a safety nerd for wearing a helmet at all. If they knew about his tire pressure monitors, then he would get a free upgrade to safety nazi.

You pays your money and you takes your chances. As long as the education is out there and nobody hits me, then let them roll, or slide, as the case may be. More training and courtesy would likely be a better salve than relying on the cyborg stripper outfits that safety gear has turned into, but we know that's unlikely to happen in a ME FIRST society.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
If they knew about his tire pressure monitors, then he would get a free upgrade to safety nazi.
actually little to do with safety - more to do with being annoyed at the cost of rear tires. :D


••

didn't note the photo but accidents around the house area as gruesome or more so....hot oil or boling water are notorious.

Sometimes I think the gear nazi pressure comes from outside the rider community...parents and SigO insisting.

Now off road riders rarely are seen without gear...it's the norm that you fall off.
I'm just trying to figure out were the whole ATGATT headspace and preaching about it comes from ....is it justification for what is a personal choice...risk avoidance. :confused:
 

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It's important to remember that most of the people on this forum ride much more than the average casual rider. As a result, we're more conscious of all the unpleasant things that can happen while motivating on two wheels.

It's all a matter of risk management. The longer the ride, the more gear I wear. If I'm running one mile from here to the hardware store and back, I'll throw on my helmet, but I don't bother with anything else. If I'm headed out for a 100 mile ride, I don the entire ensemble. My wife and I intend to start some multiple hundred mile riding this summer on "Ingrid," so we'll probably pick up riding pants to go with our helmets, jackets, and gloves. (I'll probably never get my wife to wear riding boots but, hey, I do what I can...)

When I see the human tattoo pallets riding their potato bikes with no helmets or safety gear on the expressway at 70 mph, I just shake my head and wish them luck. Chances are most of them smoke cigarettes, anyway, so they're probably risk-takers in general. At least they're only putting themselves at risk, which I feel is as it should be.
 

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Until a couple of years ago I never had any gear , but I do now . Come summer unless I'm traveling at high speeds other than a helmet I don't use it . 50+ years and to date no road rash (knock on wood) . TheReaper!
I rode over 50 years without incident also. I also didn't wear any gear other than a helmet until about 14 or 15 years ago when I started riding BMW and didn't want to stand out in the crowd among other BMW riders. I went from a half or 3/4 helmet to a modular one and started wearing armored jackets.

I was shocked when my wife came home and found me bloody, bruised and suffering from a concussion from an apparent accident on mu scooter based on the damage to it. I have no memory of even riding or coming home but the damage to the helmet showed it probably saved me along with no damage where my jacket was. My jeans allowed my knees to be bloody and skinned and my toes were bruised. The doctor said a CT scan showed that I had suffered a minor stroke that resulted in an accident very close to home on a very warm day. I wouldn't think of riding unprotected. I have thought about what could have happened and how bad it could have been if I was in a car for an innocent party.
 

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I see the human tattoo pallets riding their potato bikes with no helmets or safety gear on the expressway at 70 mph... At least they're only putting themselves at risk, which I feel is as it should be.
Except that they are not just putting themselves at risk. Gear like good shoes verses flip-flops can make the difference of loosing control which could cause someone else to get hurt. Also some people who witness horrible traffic accidents suffer mentally. I am not just talking about first responders either. If a un-helmeted rider's brains are splattered all over your windshield it isn't something you are likely to forget. Also what about loved ones left behind? In my mind it is totally irresponsible to ride without at least the basic gear!
 

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Now off road riders rarely are seen without gear...it's the norm that you fall off. I'm just trying to figure out were the whole ATGATT headspace and preaching about it comes from ....is it justification for what is a personal choice...risk avoidance. :confused:
You probably just answered your own question. Top tier riders consistently cite dirt riding experience at an early age as critical to their later skills, regardless of their chosen niche. As you mention, dirt riding involves falling down. Gear reduces the consequences, especially if you ride aggressively, which the best riders do (or did). Chunky boots, gloves and body armour are really moto/super-cross innovations.

As those riders move into track riding, their preferences would come with them. ATGATT because needless injury reduces your ability to compete, especially as a professional. Nowadays, it could mean millions in lost prize money and endorsements. From that point, it's easy to see a logical progression (ignoring personal injury experience). Riding is statistically hazardous, accidents are debilitating and the best riders are ATGATT. I want to be like the best riders, don't you?

I don't think it's limited to motorcycle gear either and comes in flavours if you like (novelty vs open face vs modular vs full face helmets). I suspect it's a byproduct of our social nature. Primates instinctively want members of their group to be safe too. A larger, uninjured group has better chances at survival. Politeness and happiness is another matter. So we communicate the risks and the bigger risks justify louder warnings (like the gruesome foot). Think about the deeper rationales underpinning laws, nations, religions. AGATT is a very small subset of that idea. Repealing helmet laws seems popular these days, so I would suggest anti-gear advocates can be just as strident too. :boxing:
 

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Motorcycling to me is no different than other adventure sports like mountaineering, kayaking or mountain biking. Would a climber make an assault on K2 without the proper gear, or a paddler engage Class 4 whitewater without a helmet and PFD or a downhill mountain bike racer do so without head protection? Sure, one can forgo the protective gear and take their chances but what happens when things go south? Those who enjoy these sports don't do them one time but hopefully can enjoy them as long as they can. We hope to stay in the game so when we do crash and burn it won't be too ugly and we can pick ourselves back up and keep on, keeping on. I want to protect my assets so I can ride this pony as long as I can.
 
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