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Discussion Starter #1
28.k miles new clutch shoes,new bearings all the way thru new belt today did a 314 mile ride with my club 1/2 into the ride i could feel slippage now by the time i got home stopped at the last red light and the **** thing would hardly move talking bout slipping WOW.IT ALMOST HIT 8000 RPM'S BEFORE TAKEN OFF...just holy crap serious if i had been 10 miles from home i most likely would not have made it.again just about ready to give up i must have bought the lemon of the lemon of the whole lemon bikes 2004.28k and i at the end of my wits ive replaced everything but the bell housing...now with all that happen today the new clutch shoes are prolly toasted and the belt most likely to so back to the **** drawing board ..any insight i'll take it or should i just put it over the fire n watch it burn baby burn ...and please be nice no wise ass comments thank you!!!!
 

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You have the Right Parts in there Don't you, I remember putting a 06' Clutch in my 07' it ran but did lots of Slipping and rev a lot to high rpm. Set up like this will Wear real Quick.

Elliott,
 

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I don't have a 2004 400, but I've had a 2007 and now have a 2008. While the parts aren't interchangeable, the principles are. Luckily, the design on the 400's CVT is fairly basic. This is solvable, in other words. :thumbup:

I'd do a couple things to try and figure this out. Maybe you've done them already. Maybe not. Please don't be offended if I repeat something you've already done.

  • 1. Take off the outer and inner CVT cover. Look to see what is loose before taking anything further apart. If you can, take pictures. If you need help posting them, contact me through a PM and I'll give you my email address and you can send them to me there. I'll resize them and post them here.
    2. Pay attention to the variator nut and Belleville washer under it. It should be installed like this picture from Wikipedia shows with the outer edge against the variator and the inner raised portion against the nut. That puts spring pressure on the nut and helps hold the torque.

    3. Is the nut loose on the variator?
    4. Where is the CVT belt when stopped on the variator (front) pulleys? (This is where a picture will save a thousand words.)

Before removing anything, make sure everything is away from anything that might move, and start the engine with the bike on the center stand. You may want someone to do that part while you watch how things are working. With as much slippage as you seem to have, it ought to be really obvious for what is loose.

My initial assumption is the variator nut isn't torqued properly and comes loose on you. I hope that is the cause actually, because it is easy to fix. ;) When I put the nut on my 400, I'll turn the nut with a socket wrench through about 3-4 compression cycles of the engine. (That's the engine crankshaft you're turning.) On the first time of turning the nut through a compression cycle, I'll see the CVT belt move from the inner portion of the variator pulley to about 3/4 of the way out on the pulley. I'll do it several more times just to be sure the CVT belt is seated before torquing the nut.

If you don't, you'll pinch the belt. As soon as you turn the engine over, the belt moves out and the nut is now loose. Eventually, the nut comes off the threads and hard pieces of metal begin bouncing around inside that case destroying everything they hit.

Now, what's the condition of the belt and pulley faces? A picture of the pulley faces will help, unless they just look perfect and you have no questions about those. Someone else will have to look in their Service Manual for the measurements of the belt. You're right, you could've damaged the belt, but hopefully not. There are two things to check.

  • 1. The width of the belt. This is where you need the Service Manual specs. I can give you the ones for the newer model 400, but I don't know if they are valid on yours.
    2. Twist the belt to see if there's any delamination of the belt layers. The side of the belt is where the wear occurs, so make sure it looks good all the way around on both sides.

Did you install Dr. Pulley Sliding weights? Or are you using the OEM weights? The DPS weights have two ways to install them. One is the right way. The other is the "wrong" way. The "wrong" way on my 400 gives you incredible acceleration (like adding another 100ccs), but it causes the rpms to jump substantially with any twist of the throttle. Again, a picture if you're using DPS weights would be helpful and this is easy to fix.

I doubt your issue is with the clutch, but it would be nice to see pictures of it. The clutch bell should be silver or brown in color. If you've had a lot of slippage back there, it'll show blue spots or maybe be entirely blue. Unless it is really bad, I wouldn't change it though. But it will give you an indication if there's a problem back there.

The clutch bell has a nut of the same size as the one holding the variator on. It also has a Belleville washer. Take the nut off and check the washer for being installed properly. You're in there already, so you might as well check it.

The only other thing I can think of that could cause your problem, would be something amiss in the final drive. You'll need help from someone else to check there. From what I've seen of mine, if you change the oil in it and you don't see oil leaking on the floor from a bad seal, that final drive should last the lifetime of the bike.

The operation is pretty simple, which is why this is solvable. Engine rpms move the weights outward in the variator (front) pulleys. The inner pulley gets moved against the outer pulley and that forces the belt to move. Since the belt is a fixed length, something has to give and that's the positioning in the rear (driven) pulleys. They spin the clutch. Until engine rpms reach about 2800, the clutch pads are held in place by springs on the pads. Once the rpms get high enough, centrifugal force overcomes the pull of the springs and the clutch pads move outward and contact the clutch bell. Once the pads contact the clutch bell, the bike begins to move forward and the driveline is now connected between the engine and the rear wheel.

If you're slipping that much, in my mind it means the belt is slipping. If it is slipping more as you ride, then something was tight to start with, but loosened up as you rode. The only place the belt can slip is in the two pulleys. You don't change anything on the rear, so it leads me to look at the front. That leads to the nut. In the rear, the only place where there is slippage, is in the clutch pad area. Once you're up to 3500-4000 rpms, the pads should be holding tight against the clutch bell. There should be no slippage from that point on.

It does raise a question in my mind. Did you get the right clutch when you replaced it? It's a long shot, but if you got one that wasn't the proper size (too small), it might not move out enough to grab fully on the clutch bell. Again, let us know if the slippage increases as you ride, or if it is constant.

Good luck. I can imagine your frustration on this.

Chris
 

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Discussion Starter #4
once i get it body parts off where i can see things i'll take pics and post thank you Daboo
 

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Discussion Starter #7
MAY HAVE FOUND THE CULPRIT ...looks like on the drum it's drenched in gear oil from the drum it's self it's coated with greasy looking oily substance that would collect on the shoes and for sure make it slip WTH
 

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It may be a illusion but that front pulley looks like the nut as worn it's way through it.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
well that iamge didnt turn out the way i wanted it to...so it's out of whack..i think what i did was when i put the bearings back in the clutch assymbly and the idler bearing i over greased it and it's possibly leaking out over time or sling out the back i looked down inh there n there is alot of extra grease that should not be there and grease i know when heating will turn oily so im going to take the clutch assymbly apart n wipe off the acess grease , the belt and rollers are good to go no wear .just the oily substance on the drum n clutch shoes anything anyone can recommend cleaning the clutch shoes with
 

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Discussion Starter #10
wait till you see what i found missing :( :( i must have been drunk when i added the seals i found 1 missing completely :(

missing seal and grease leaking past seal going any where it wants to
 

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Well that BELL needs Work, For one thing there's to Much Rust on it, You need to Replace it, Or Workshop it, it looks like the Clutch is making Contact with the end and Front of the Bell Housing ,
What you can Do is put the Bell on a grinding Wheel by taking off the Grinding Bit and putting the Bell on there Backwards, Get Sand Paper and work the Surface, to remove all the rust & Oil, You may have a leak from the Torque Fixed face driver it self, Check the seals for oil leaks.

Oil would do that Slip like Mad i had that problem Once it's a Horrible ride.

But that missing Seal is not where the Oil is getting in at, For one thing Who put OIL Never USE OIL, CVT and OILS don't MIX, USE GREASE ONLY!!!!!!!! from the look at the Pics there is way to much Grease, a special Grease has to be used, one with a High Melting Point that won't turn into OIL when Overheated...

as far as the Seal you can go to an Hardware Store and find a rubber Seal for that.


Elliott,
 

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Discussion Starter #12
the bell housing hase never looked like that thats just recently..it always have a good clean surface ..this grease thats on it i feel came from the fix drive face seals ive already order new ones but ill get the bell cleaned li
ke u said i appreciate your insights i really appreciate all the help i get ive even order new washers and nuts for the face drive on variator and the bell housing again ty sir :)
 

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Your definitely learning your scoot.
I hope it is a labor of love and brings you the reward you are waiting for.
Grease and a friction clutch is never a good thing. Glad you found the problem!
 

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Discussion Starter #14
thank you steve yea i love it .lol Elliott, here's my bell housing cleaned up no sanding yet no rust what so ever it was the grease there was alot of it..i know when i put this thing together for the 1st time someone said grease it really good i think i greased it really to good .anyways i appreciate everyone knowledge i really do i've order all new seals again and 2 nuts n new washers like Dabbo said so want to make sure there right ive got some time for the parts come in time for a lil scooter cleaning had to order new roller weights also so we'll see where it goes from there Steve were leaving for sure the 8th of May 1st over night stop Helen Gawga thanks guys
 

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OK! looks good But get the Lines out when you get time those lines will Show up on the Clutch Pads and Cause Premature uneven Wear Reducing Pad Life... You can use a dremel Sanding Bit to remove the Surface Lines...

you all so want to look a round for a High Temp Grease, Not that stuff in the stores , if you know where to look, i tried all but most of the store stuff and it just melts into OIL and gets all over everything...

Good Luck..

Elliott,
 

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I have never worked on these before but I was an aircraft mechanic when I was in the military and we used Moli B. I think it has graphite in it. (You will have to look up the real name. It is very long) Would that work well on a scooter?
 

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Discussion Starter #18

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Moly/Moli lube grease is good stuff but keep it clear of any Nylon, plastic, Teflon, rubber etc...
The Molybdenum Disulfide is a soft abrasive to those types of materials and will accelerate wear over time.
 
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