[bean]

hello,
I am now even more on the fence about which scooter to buy. I rode both the 400 and 650 again today. I took a little longer rides and found the 400 to have excellent power and a nice ride along with easier maneuverability, certainly from the low 400lb weight.
I had the 650 in "power" mode, but did not shift it manually. is all of the performance realized by shifting it manually? I have to say that the 400 seemed as fast as the 650 in 0-60 times. maybe by shifting manually, the 650 will outperform it easily.
the engine braking on the 650 is way too much. it should free up a lot sooner. I don't know if I could enjoy that part of the 650.
I would have much prefered a larger, exact copy of the 400. I like the gauges, linked brakes,low seat heigth, and simple/proven drivetrain of the 400. I have to say that I feel like the 400 is as good as the 650, when you consider it is almost $2k less.
anyways, did I miss all of the performance potential by not using the manual shifter? :?
thanks
ps. both scooters I rode were demos with miles on them

 

[allwalk]

I own the 650 and hardly ever use the manual mode . The 650 has more than enough in regular mode and if you need extra then the powermode is excellent.

I would have to disagree with you in acceleration of the 2 machines however. I just rode the 400 at a demo ride so I could be more familiar with it and possibly be more help to people on this forum. I found that I was having to crack the 400 full throttle to keep up to the pack on the demo ride where as the 650 I can feel the same power just rolling on the throttle. I also found that once you are travelling at lets say 80km/h and you nail the throttle , the 650 jumps and the 400 in my opinion labors or has to work so much more. Now Keep in Mind that I am use to my 650 and really noticed when I was down on power. The 400 did ride well and was very comfortable.

 

[lycheed]

Yes, I have to agree with Allwalk. I own a 650, and it is totally different to the 400 in acceleration times, mainly due to the extra 250cc it has in it's pocket and the gearbox. This electronic CVT keeps the engine in the max torque zone when you are in 'D', and the pwer zone when you use "Power Mode". This makes it the fastest of al scooters - leaving both the SW600 and TMax 500 in it's wake.

The 400 has a conentional CVT gearbox that runs it through variable ratios pneumatically. Whilst being extremely good, it does mean that the engine can't rev to the redline as you accelerate, so you can never use max power. The engine is tuned to match the CVT, so it's not a problem, but the electric CVT of the 650 gives it this advantage over every other scooter available. However, the lurching in turaffic that the engine braking effect causes is not always seen as a benefit - the 400 doesn't suffer from that.

Swings and roundabouts. I actually really rate the 400 as a real allrounder. Comfortable, stylish, great brakes as you mention, nice torque, and excellent carry space.

For reference, the 650 goes from 0-60 in 6.5 seconds or so. That's about the same as a BMW 530i. The 400 is fast, but neither it nor the TMax, not SW can match that.

 

[bean]

I agree that the 650 is faster 0-60. the 400 takes a second for the rpms to build during initial take-off. at 5mph , roughly, it really starts to move. probably rivaling the 650 up to 40 mph. greatly out-distances almost any car from a stoplight.
the 650 is deceptively fast. I hit the accelerator a few times to merge with traffic, only to look down at the speedo and see I was close to 70mph(seemed like 55mph).
both scooters are excellent. I may have to take one more ride to make a final decision.

 

[pauljo]

You will realize the best accelleration on the 650 by shifting manual mode just before redline on the tach. However, I find the LCD tach difficult to see - sometimes impossible in direct sunlight. You can ride this scooter all day in Auto mode though with decent performance.

On the flat, the engine braking does take some getting used to. However, I think that in hilly or mountainous terrain, it might be quite beneficial. I plan to do a couple of tours this summer (Ozarks, maybe Black Hills or Rockies), so I'll probably have more to say on that later on.

 

[sleibo24]

power mode

Engine braking is much stronger in power mode because you are 1000 rpms higher most of the time. It would have felt much better in reg auto mode and in manual the braking is even lighter.

 

[bean]

thanks for all of the replys. I did notice that the engine-braking was less dramatic when not in power mode. I will probably ride the 650 one more time.
I actually went there the last time just to take the 650 on a longer ride than the first time around. the salesman had the 400 right beside it and I figured why not. I was very impressed with both scooters, perhaps surprised with the great performance of the 400.
I am close enough to the ohio dealer on ebay that is offering the burgmans at great prices. my local dealer can come close to the 400 prices with their left over '03s, but they don't have any '03 650s.
If I go with the 400, I will probably give my business to the local dealer. the salesman has bent over backwards with my requests for test rides, etc.
thanks again.
decisions,decisions

 

[Ted White]

ONe way to out-fox the let-go into freewheeling at 5-7 mph on the 650 is to very slightly apply the rear brake and just as slightly apply a bit of throttle. The tension between the two nullifies the let-go.

The only time I use power mode is during a pass. I found the manual mode a waste of time, except for very steep uphill or downhill grades.

Again, you can counter engine braking by not letting fully off the throttle and using the rear brake just a bit. It took me a couple of weeks to learn how to out-smart the 650. Now I can bring it down to a full stop without feeling any of the engine braking or freewheeling.

I cannot compare the 400 and 650 because I've never ridden a 400. I sat on one in a dealer showroom by mistake, thinking it was a 650.

Where I live, in the desert on the Mexican border. with lots of high speed rural two lane roads, the ability to cruise at 75-90 mph is more important than agility in dense urban traffic. There is no dense urban traffic.

 

[ajwood]

A couple of reasons that I gave my 650 up for a 400 was because
I don't race everything in sight and the most fast riding I do is alone anyway.

Calculate 55mpg for the 650 and 65-70mpg for the 400 over the years of ownership
of the bike and the 400 doesn't drink as much dino-juice.
This is extra money for a better dinner or camping spot.

 

[bean]

I am not a speed demon either. I am not suggesting that the 400 has the same potential as the 650, I am saying that when riding in normal conditions(merging with traffic, getting in front of traffic from a stoplight, etc), the 400 feels as powerful or capable as the 650. I never did any wot riding, I was just riding them as I would every day, which will have situations where you may have to gun it.
it is sort of like comparing a gsxr750 to a gsxr1000. one is faster than the other, but both are more than capable of the getting the job done.
that being said, I have ordered a 650. I am not thrilled with the 15mpg hit that I will take and the $1500 higher price, but it does fit me better and is probably neccessary for riding double.
truthfully, if aprilia wan't having problems with the atlantic 500, I would have gone that route. I had the chance to sit on one again today and it is an absolute perfect fit for me. I like the upright seating position and analog gauges. there was a 400 burgman right beside it and after jumping back and forth between the 2, I ruled out the 400 altogether. the 650 is a similar fit, just slightly less comfortable.
thanks for all of the opinions/information. I like good, honest information.

 

[lycheed]

ajwood, I understand your train of thought. And it's not just the fuel comsumption that the 400 has in it's favour over the 650 - it's tyres, brakes, general servicing costs. The 650 is not an economical choice, but my word it's a great tourer.

To be honest, I actually intended to use the 650 for dedicated tandem touring, and the commute. I intended to trade in my Reflex 250 ABS when I bought the 650 but as luck would have it, the Reflex suffered a freak electrical problem linked to the "idling stop" computer (that stops the engine when you come to rest at traffic lights, then restarts it again in an instant when you turn the throttle) just two days before I bought the 650. I had to leave the Relfex at the nearest bikeshop and take the train to work for the next two days, and make up the difference in cash over trading in the Relfex when I collected the 650. On my first ride home through traffic back from the dealership, I know that I had been struck by a very fortunate coincidence - the 650 and the Reflex (the AN250/400 is a similar package) are totally different beasts, and using the 650 on the commute for me would be a waste. Almost overkill. This thing is designed for grander duties than stop 'n' starts.

Would you believe that the next morning, I went to collect the Reflex from the bikeshop and was informed that due to other pre-booked in jobs they couldn't begin to work on the bike. Simply put, they hadn't touched it. However, when I thumbed the starter, the engine lit first time. Perhaps the Relflex knew that his time wasn't up... A bit supernatural, but it's an odd coincidence.

The AN400 is a superb allrounder. Enjoy your next camping trip.

 

[Ottawa Den]

There is a monthly magazine called Motorcycle Consumer News (no ads). They reviewed the 650 Burgman in May 2004 and compared it more than favourably to a 2004 Honda Aero 750 cruiser

Speed 0-60 MPH (American) not Kilometers
Regular 10 sec.
Power 8 sec.
Manual 7 sec.
1/4 mile 15.19 sec

Article reprints — Ian Smith information at (303) 777-2385. I don't get anything for this plug but it's a great mag to read and maybe if more of us opt for a subscription, they'll include more articles of interest.