Have a read ...
Google translation of megascooter.net page
As you can see it is translated ...
Greg ...
Google translation of megascooter.net page
As you can see it is translated ...
Greg ...
50tn anniversary Burgman 650 and Burgman 800 ?
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Interesting implications in the contents of that article.
The 50th Anniversary didn't sell very well in Japan - I have never seen one on the road. Nothing on it is unique, apart from the seat. Everything else can be fitted as an optional extra at any point straight from the Suzuki factory options catalogue. I suppose the seat and shiny backed backrest could be ordered as parts as well.
Budget 400USD for the seat, and 150USD for the backrest.
I have not heard any firm pledges by Suzuki Japan to produce a Skywave/Burgman 800. It wouldn't surprise me, but I haven't seen anything yet.
The only challenge is whether there is large enough market to justify production of such a machine, when the SilverWing outsold the Burgman 650 with a smaller displacement, a more or less conventional scooter chassis and gearbox, and less touring ability. It's obviously not cubes that are the selling factor in this grand touring scooter marketplace at the moment.
I personally think that the Burgman 650 pisses all over the SilverWing in terms of tandem touring ability and also in the fun stakes, but many GT scooter owners bought them with a view to riding them as both a commuter and tourer - the 650 falls down in the cities (literally if you are not careful) compared to the SW.
Making an even heavier and potentially larger 800 would totally strip it of the "big scooter" pretensions and make it an even better tourer, but potentially would narrow it's market appeal - which is not a good way to replenish the costs of developing a new machine. Yes, it's winning GoldWing and BMW RT buyers, but not enough to make a more narrowly focused bike commercially viable - unless they sort the character clutch to make it easier to go through city traffic.
I'd love an 800, however. Even more torque made instantly available via the electronic CVT... It would probably be a parallel twin lump again to save space, but if they could make it a triple the sound would be awesome, and reminiscent of the 1800 flat six GoldWing lump. I already refer to the Burger 650 as the "real" SilverWing, so the noise of a triple would be superb.
The 50th Anniversary didn't sell very well in Japan - I have never seen one on the road. Nothing on it is unique, apart from the seat. Everything else can be fitted as an optional extra at any point straight from the Suzuki factory options catalogue. I suppose the seat and shiny backed backrest could be ordered as parts as well.
Budget 400USD for the seat, and 150USD for the backrest.
I have not heard any firm pledges by Suzuki Japan to produce a Skywave/Burgman 800. It wouldn't surprise me, but I haven't seen anything yet.
The only challenge is whether there is large enough market to justify production of such a machine, when the SilverWing outsold the Burgman 650 with a smaller displacement, a more or less conventional scooter chassis and gearbox, and less touring ability. It's obviously not cubes that are the selling factor in this grand touring scooter marketplace at the moment.
I personally think that the Burgman 650 pisses all over the SilverWing in terms of tandem touring ability and also in the fun stakes, but many GT scooter owners bought them with a view to riding them as both a commuter and tourer - the 650 falls down in the cities (literally if you are not careful) compared to the SW.
Making an even heavier and potentially larger 800 would totally strip it of the "big scooter" pretensions and make it an even better tourer, but potentially would narrow it's market appeal - which is not a good way to replenish the costs of developing a new machine. Yes, it's winning GoldWing and BMW RT buyers, but not enough to make a more narrowly focused bike commercially viable - unless they sort the character clutch to make it easier to go through city traffic.
I'd love an 800, however. Even more torque made instantly available via the electronic CVT... It would probably be a parallel twin lump again to save space, but if they could make it a triple the sound would be awesome, and reminiscent of the 1800 flat six GoldWing lump. I already refer to the Burger 650 as the "real" SilverWing, so the noise of a triple would be superb.
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604 Posts
We don't need it....
OK Guys,
The testosterone is getting thick...all the world needs is another larger displacement model of an already successful one. Think about it. More hp more torque and more silly riders never being satisfied. Go get yourselves a 1300 hyabusa (sp?) and be done with it. The 650 has plently of smooth and manageable power and has reasonable gas mileage. It won't change the speed limits and it will transform the Burgman into the bigger, heavier BIGMAN! We nicknamed the GoldWing the LeadWing maybe the same will happen to here. Just some thoughts guys!
OK Guys,
The testosterone is getting thick...all the world needs is another larger displacement model of an already successful one. Think about it. More hp more torque and more silly riders never being satisfied. Go get yourselves a 1300 hyabusa (sp?) and be done with it. The 650 has plently of smooth and manageable power and has reasonable gas mileage. It won't change the speed limits and it will transform the Burgman into the bigger, heavier BIGMAN! We nicknamed the GoldWing the LeadWing maybe the same will happen to here. Just some thoughts guys!
I tend to agree with Timothy on his points regarding whether a higher displacement is even needed for a bike like the Burgman - I am quite sure however that many would appreciate it, as there is wisdom in the old saying "there is no replacement for displacement!"
I live in California and drive on some very wide and expansive freeways. In Orange County in particular, everybody here has new cars and these, even the largest SUV's most often come with a huge amount of horsepower, as they all shoot out of the stoplights like a bullet, hitting 60mph in no time, even if the next light is red :roll: quite a funny sight. They are all in a hurry and carry monstrous amounts of power. Even the "Soccer Moms" are driving around with 260hp 6,000lb SUV's as if it were NASCAR. On the Freeways, if you aren't cruising at 75mph, get out of the way!
In this environment, the Burgman 650 can easily pace and even outrun (when needed) most of these vehicles in traffic, and thusly I don't see the point of needing any much more power than it already has. In driving long distances in wide open roads, the Burgman as most of us know is quite comfortable at a 70-75mph pace.
Often in the past I have thought what even a 1 litre Burgman would look, feel and drive like, and concluded: "What for?" It would only increase the weight and practically eliminate the 'ease of use' appeal of the "scooter." Well then it would likely translate directly into an automatic transmission Gold Wing. I'm not sure that is appealing to me anymore.
Although the Burgman 650 is already a fantastic motorcycle, what would definitely improve its overall existence would be lighter weight to make it more manageable at super-low parking speeds, somewhat like that of the Burgman 400 - THAT would be a really great feature, and to respond with the notion that "more is better" I feel the Burgman would be better off with "less."
In addition, rather than a simple increase of displacement I would rather see Suzuki spend their efforts at developing a creative solution to compensate for the "engine braking" effect at slow-down, pass on the "auto-folding" features as standard, put an automatic raise/lowering windsheild, fixing the dieseling sound, making available more accessories so as to develop a good "customize" market --- THAT is what I would like to see in future Burgmans, not more engine. Minus the dieseling sound and the engine-brake effect, the current engine, drivetrain and chassis is fine with me.
I live in California and drive on some very wide and expansive freeways. In Orange County in particular, everybody here has new cars and these, even the largest SUV's most often come with a huge amount of horsepower, as they all shoot out of the stoplights like a bullet, hitting 60mph in no time, even if the next light is red :roll: quite a funny sight. They are all in a hurry and carry monstrous amounts of power. Even the "Soccer Moms" are driving around with 260hp 6,000lb SUV's as if it were NASCAR. On the Freeways, if you aren't cruising at 75mph, get out of the way!
In this environment, the Burgman 650 can easily pace and even outrun (when needed) most of these vehicles in traffic, and thusly I don't see the point of needing any much more power than it already has. In driving long distances in wide open roads, the Burgman as most of us know is quite comfortable at a 70-75mph pace.
Often in the past I have thought what even a 1 litre Burgman would look, feel and drive like, and concluded: "What for?" It would only increase the weight and practically eliminate the 'ease of use' appeal of the "scooter." Well then it would likely translate directly into an automatic transmission Gold Wing. I'm not sure that is appealing to me anymore.
Although the Burgman 650 is already a fantastic motorcycle, what would definitely improve its overall existence would be lighter weight to make it more manageable at super-low parking speeds, somewhat like that of the Burgman 400 - THAT would be a really great feature, and to respond with the notion that "more is better" I feel the Burgman would be better off with "less."
In addition, rather than a simple increase of displacement I would rather see Suzuki spend their efforts at developing a creative solution to compensate for the "engine braking" effect at slow-down, pass on the "auto-folding" features as standard, put an automatic raise/lowering windsheild, fixing the dieseling sound, making available more accessories so as to develop a good "customize" market --- THAT is what I would like to see in future Burgmans, not more engine. Minus the dieseling sound and the engine-brake effect, the current engine, drivetrain and chassis is fine with me.
im used to lightweight sportbikes before i bought the burgman...how about keeping it at 650 cc but tweak the engine to be more powerful by making it an inline 4 with more horsepower? that would work for me living in south florida if on the interstate highways if ur not atleast doing 75 or 80 you will get run over and in passing situations on the highway when the burgman indicates 90 (81 gps) the pick up response is not quite as good as if you were doing 60. id like to see the 650 have about 100 hp. just for those moments on the interstate when u need to merge in traffic next to that 18 wheeler going 80. sorry if that sounds crazy but its actually realistic at times. there is a mental thing here if the speed limit says 55 everyone has to do 70 if it says 70 everyone does 80.
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As I said, bigger and heavier Burgman with the same character clutch would sell even less than this one has - the conventional 600cc SilverWing has outsold this both in the domestic Japanese market (biggest market) and the global market. Why? Because this thing doesn't go round town very well, and it is as wide as a Mini Copper (and that is not a joke).
Many that bought the 650 may have done so without a test ride and have just got used to riding round town, or planned to have one bike and find that it is the best compromise. Many potential owners test rode it and felt it just didn't match the Wing around town, and bought Wing instead. Other AN650 owners bought it as a pure tandem touring machine and spend their time camping on it in the mountains - much like myself.
For this application, more torque is not a bad thing and certainly although it sounds pretty good actually, the purr of a parallel or V-3 would be wonderful.
I also own a 163bhp x11 (which is both more comfortable and faster than a Hayabusa up to 210km/h - which, incidentally is more than the legal limit...), an RC45, an RVF NC35, a Forza (Relfex) 250 and an SR125 Aprilia - I don't like selling things on if I can help it. I personally do not EVER ride solo on the 650 - it's my pure tandem touring machine. I use the x11 or Forza for solo riding. Even riding with a passenger, in normal non-highway road conditions (top gear and 70km/h), the 650 out torques my 80ft lbs x11 as it is - and that is not easily done. However, when you are riding on mountain climbs already 2000 meters up, with 20kg of luggage and a pasenger, a bit more torque would be beneficial.
I imagine this may also be of benefit in highway conditions, too. Incidentally, due to it's massive weight and the need to plan ahead, it is almost as fun as the brutal x11 on the twisties.
This is an amazing new age tourer, with handling, lighting, and carryspace second to none, but at altitude a little more torque certainly wouldn't go amiss.
Many that bought the 650 may have done so without a test ride and have just got used to riding round town, or planned to have one bike and find that it is the best compromise. Many potential owners test rode it and felt it just didn't match the Wing around town, and bought Wing instead. Other AN650 owners bought it as a pure tandem touring machine and spend their time camping on it in the mountains - much like myself.
For this application, more torque is not a bad thing and certainly although it sounds pretty good actually, the purr of a parallel or V-3 would be wonderful.
I also own a 163bhp x11 (which is both more comfortable and faster than a Hayabusa up to 210km/h - which, incidentally is more than the legal limit...), an RC45, an RVF NC35, a Forza (Relfex) 250 and an SR125 Aprilia - I don't like selling things on if I can help it. I personally do not EVER ride solo on the 650 - it's my pure tandem touring machine. I use the x11 or Forza for solo riding. Even riding with a passenger, in normal non-highway road conditions (top gear and 70km/h), the 650 out torques my 80ft lbs x11 as it is - and that is not easily done. However, when you are riding on mountain climbs already 2000 meters up, with 20kg of luggage and a pasenger, a bit more torque would be beneficial.
I imagine this may also be of benefit in highway conditions, too. Incidentally, due to it's massive weight and the need to plan ahead, it is almost as fun as the brutal x11 on the twisties.
This is an amazing new age tourer, with handling, lighting, and carryspace second to none, but at altitude a little more torque certainly wouldn't go amiss.
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5,055 Posts
Interesting viewpoints all, but I think a lot depends on where you live, and what you use the machine for the most. What you have ridden before exercises some influence too. Compared to a 250cc or smaller scooter, I suppose this 650 feels like a truck. But for those of us who have been previously riding bigger motorcycles, the 650 feels quite nimble.
I do use my 650 for urban errand running - and it is fine for that. I don't find it too heavy or too clumsy or too wide - and it is one heck of a lot handier and easier to ride in town than my motorcycle.
But I put the most miles on it travelling out on high speed country two lane roads. And I have to do some Interstate hiway travelling with it too. The wind is usually blowing out here in the Plains states - and it is not unusual to catch wind gusts in the 40 mph range. The last thing I would want is a smaller lighter 650. I need the stability that this machine has at 65 to 70 mph with the wind gusting in from the side.
I would also like about 15 more horsepower - when I have to pass on a two lane road I like to get it done and get back into my lane asap. I haven't ridden this 650 the mountains yet, but I will eventually. And I think a little additional oomph would be nice there too. I don't want a 4 cylinder engine though - I prefer the power delivery characteristics of a twin. For me, a 750cc twin would be just about perfect. And I would like to continue using regular 87 octane gasoline. You could tweak 15 more hp out of the 650, but you'd probably need higher octane fuel in the process.
Oh well, my 2 cents is now added to this very interesting thread. :wink:
I do use my 650 for urban errand running - and it is fine for that. I don't find it too heavy or too clumsy or too wide - and it is one heck of a lot handier and easier to ride in town than my motorcycle.
But I put the most miles on it travelling out on high speed country two lane roads. And I have to do some Interstate hiway travelling with it too. The wind is usually blowing out here in the Plains states - and it is not unusual to catch wind gusts in the 40 mph range. The last thing I would want is a smaller lighter 650. I need the stability that this machine has at 65 to 70 mph with the wind gusting in from the side.
I would also like about 15 more horsepower - when I have to pass on a two lane road I like to get it done and get back into my lane asap. I haven't ridden this 650 the mountains yet, but I will eventually. And I think a little additional oomph would be nice there too. I don't want a 4 cylinder engine though - I prefer the power delivery characteristics of a twin. For me, a 750cc twin would be just about perfect. And I would like to continue using regular 87 octane gasoline. You could tweak 15 more hp out of the 650, but you'd probably need higher octane fuel in the process.
Oh well, my 2 cents is now added to this very interesting thread. :wink:
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463 Posts
One of the most interesting things about this package, is that it feels remarkably similar to the brutal x11 when 2-up with saddle bags on the expanding setting, but considerably easier to turn. I covered about 35,000 kms on the x11 fully loaded like that over two and a half years. Compared to that, it feels extremely manageable, and narrow.
Previous to purchasing this, I had gone a long way down the road to buing an STX1300 Pan-European. It would have replaced the x11 as well - something that in the end I could not permit. Besides, this side of a GoldWing, nothing is more comfortable for the passenger than the 650, so at half the price of an STX it was the clear winner.
I mentioned in another thread that I went round the outside of a knee down CBR F4 rider when in tandem on the 650 - this thing is a seriously capable package. 15bhp more, or 25% more torque - just fine tuning to an already outstanding package.
Previous to purchasing this, I had gone a long way down the road to buing an STX1300 Pan-European. It would have replaced the x11 as well - something that in the end I could not permit. Besides, this side of a GoldWing, nothing is more comfortable for the passenger than the 650, so at half the price of an STX it was the clear winner.
I mentioned in another thread that I went round the outside of a knee down CBR F4 rider when in tandem on the 650 - this thing is a seriously capable package. 15bhp more, or 25% more torque - just fine tuning to an already outstanding package.
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59 Posts
Seems to me that with just a little more HP, the best addition/mod would be for the computer to let the tranny to settle into a solid hi gear, say at 75mph, and let the engine pull what it will. The RPM difference between 75mph indicated and 80-85 indicated is really quite large (sure it's higher than posted... try running I-95 at 70... anyone doing that is almost a hazard)
Tried to post this Thursday 8/4/04 but site was down ...
I can see all your points about 800cc scooter
But ...
Isn't the Honda Goldwing the same story - more power then you would need 1800cc boxer 6 cylinder ( Tank )
But they sell ...
The point is if our looking for touring bike and you see touring 800cc scooter at lower $$$ and more comfort and storage ( stock ) it may change your mine ...
But I doubt that it will become anything more then bait to see what we say on forums like this ...
Greg ...
I can see all your points about 800cc scooter
But ...
Isn't the Honda Goldwing the same story - more power then you would need 1800cc boxer 6 cylinder ( Tank )
But they sell ...
The point is if our looking for touring bike and you see touring 800cc scooter at lower $$$ and more comfort and storage ( stock ) it may change your mine ...
But I doubt that it will become anything more then bait to see what we say on forums like this ...
Greg ...
climbing capability
I've only had mine a few days. (Bought used with 1400 miles on it from a Honda dealer - he got it on trade for a Gold Wing). I live in Bisbee, Arizona, in the Mule Mountains. The highest peak is 7,600 feet. Climbing up from Tucson there is a final ascent of about 1 mile and the conventional wisdom is that if your machine will accelerate from the entrance average speed of about 50mph to 75mph, you've got a good one. Followed (as in very close) on my first day's ride home by friends on Ducatis, their speedos read slightly over 80mph.
So I've no complaints about hills at high altitude. (Of course their machines will do the grade faster, but Ducatis are not your average machines).
In slow moving downtown Bisbee traffic I find that I must take a more leisurely approach, rather than flitting about as one can do on a Vespa or Vino 125. A small price to pay: The Vespa and its clones are useless on high speed rural roads. You can get run over.
The Honda dealer's shop supervisor rode the Burgman when I complained about the so called "diesel" sound (I thought it might be a valve in its death throes), said it had nothing to do with the engine, something in the drive train, and because it disappeared the minute you got off idle, didn't think it was of much concern.
When the store owner wandered off, he said, sotto voce, this thing is way better than a Silver Wing. Accelerates better, handles better...
Made my day.
I've only had mine a few days. (Bought used with 1400 miles on it from a Honda dealer - he got it on trade for a Gold Wing). I live in Bisbee, Arizona, in the Mule Mountains. The highest peak is 7,600 feet. Climbing up from Tucson there is a final ascent of about 1 mile and the conventional wisdom is that if your machine will accelerate from the entrance average speed of about 50mph to 75mph, you've got a good one. Followed (as in very close) on my first day's ride home by friends on Ducatis, their speedos read slightly over 80mph.
So I've no complaints about hills at high altitude. (Of course their machines will do the grade faster, but Ducatis are not your average machines).
In slow moving downtown Bisbee traffic I find that I must take a more leisurely approach, rather than flitting about as one can do on a Vespa or Vino 125. A small price to pay: The Vespa and its clones are useless on high speed rural roads. You can get run over.
The Honda dealer's shop supervisor rode the Burgman when I complained about the so called "diesel" sound (I thought it might be a valve in its death throes), said it had nothing to do with the engine, something in the drive train, and because it disappeared the minute you got off idle, didn't think it was of much concern.
When the store owner wandered off, he said, sotto voce, this thing is way better than a Silver Wing. Accelerates better, handles better...
Made my day.
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5,055 Posts
Re: climbing capability
That Honda service manager was right on the money! The Burgman does outhandle the Silver Wing and it has a far superior transmission which contributes to the better accelleration. The noise does come from the drivetrain, and Suzuki says that it will not hurt anything if you leave it the way it is. (However they will authorize a fix under warranty, which quiets it down a lot - but not completely.)
I'm thinking about all the crappy advice that some of our members have received from authorized Suzuki dealers, and I'm just sitting here shaking my head. One member was recently advised that the noise was from a serious engine problem and that he shouldn't ride the scooter until it was fixed. That is completely inaccurate, and certainly not confidence inspiring, but someone at a Suzuki dealership actually laid that line on him. :withstupid:
Maybe you should buy that Honda shop a service manual, and let them service your 650... (Ron Ayers has them for $31.00 - I'm ordering one tomorrow).
Ted,Ted White said:
That Honda service manager was right on the money! The Burgman does outhandle the Silver Wing and it has a far superior transmission which contributes to the better accelleration. The noise does come from the drivetrain, and Suzuki says that it will not hurt anything if you leave it the way it is. (However they will authorize a fix under warranty, which quiets it down a lot - but not completely.)
I'm thinking about all the crappy advice that some of our members have received from authorized Suzuki dealers, and I'm just sitting here shaking my head. One member was recently advised that the noise was from a serious engine problem and that he shouldn't ride the scooter until it was fixed. That is completely inaccurate, and certainly not confidence inspiring, but someone at a Suzuki dealership actually laid that line on him. :withstupid:
Maybe you should buy that Honda shop a service manual, and let them service your 650... (Ron Ayers has them for $31.00 - I'm ordering one tomorrow).
Service Manual
Paul, wait, don't go away.
Is Ron Ayers someone you know, or is it a company?
At that price I'll buy one tomorrow.
Your suggestion about having the Honda service department work on the Burgman is well taken. They probably would if they had the service manual.
Somewhere else on this forum I wrote about the local Suzuki/Kawasaki dealer (in the same town as the Honda dealer): When I asked a few months ago if they'd ever get a Burgman, the salesman said, "The owner won't have a scooter on the floor. Not now, not ever."
When I bought the Burgman last week from the Honda dealer, they advised me to go to the aforementioned Suzuki dealer and get the warranty transfered as it was good until 11-15-04. When the Honda guy called the Suzuki dealer about it, the Suzuki guy said (and I could hear his voice over the phone), "Oh, God, one of those things. All plastic and where the hell's the engine." But of course he agreed to have me come down and do the warranty registration. I don't think he had much choice.
When I arrived and handed him the paper work he said that if I had really wanted a Burgman they would have ordered one for me. I said that I'd made three separate inquiries in the last few months.
Clearly he was pissed because he'd obviously lost a sale.
Paul, wait, don't go away.
Is Ron Ayers someone you know, or is it a company?
At that price I'll buy one tomorrow.
Your suggestion about having the Honda service department work on the Burgman is well taken. They probably would if they had the service manual.
Somewhere else on this forum I wrote about the local Suzuki/Kawasaki dealer (in the same town as the Honda dealer): When I asked a few months ago if they'd ever get a Burgman, the salesman said, "The owner won't have a scooter on the floor. Not now, not ever."
When I bought the Burgman last week from the Honda dealer, they advised me to go to the aforementioned Suzuki dealer and get the warranty transfered as it was good until 11-15-04. When the Honda guy called the Suzuki dealer about it, the Suzuki guy said (and I could hear his voice over the phone), "Oh, God, one of those things. All plastic and where the hell's the engine." But of course he agreed to have me come down and do the warranty registration. I don't think he had much choice.
When I arrived and handed him the paper work he said that if I had really wanted a Burgman they would have ordered one for me. I said that I'd made three separate inquiries in the last few months.
Clearly he was pissed because he'd obviously lost a sale.
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5,055 Posts
Ted,
Ron Ayers is a mail order dealer that specializes in discount prices on OEM parts. Their website isn't the best, so I had to email them and ask for prices / part numbers. They do however, have an online parts microfiche of the Burgman 650 that is often useful. The website is at https://www.ronayers.com/main.cfm. Here is the copy of the email I received today from them. (Since I own 2 Suzuki's I needed two service manuals.)
Hi,
Here are your prices:
2003 Suzuki V-Strom DL1000 99500-39260-03E $31.02
2003 Suzuki Burgman AN650 Scooter 99500-36110-03E 31.02
Thanks
Chip Spalding
RonAyers.com
1-800-888-3084
Ron Ayers is a mail order dealer that specializes in discount prices on OEM parts. Their website isn't the best, so I had to email them and ask for prices / part numbers. They do however, have an online parts microfiche of the Burgman 650 that is often useful. The website is at https://www.ronayers.com/main.cfm. Here is the copy of the email I received today from them. (Since I own 2 Suzuki's I needed two service manuals.)
Hi,
Here are your prices:
2003 Suzuki V-Strom DL1000 99500-39260-03E $31.02
2003 Suzuki Burgman AN650 Scooter 99500-36110-03E 31.02
Thanks
Chip Spalding
RonAyers.com
1-800-888-3084
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