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Discussion Starter #1
I rode the 650 today and experinced the engine breaking when the throttle was chopped. The clutch on this bike did not disengage untill 8 mph. Different feeling but kinda nice... Now I just want to verify......

On the 400 does the clutch disengage immediately when the throttle is chopped? Thanks.
 

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On the 400, the clutch will disengage at a similar speed to the 650, and not when the throttle is 'chopped'. For those unaccustomed to it, it may be unnerving as it 'suggests' that you are accelerating towards the very feature you were slowing down for - however it ain't the case you have just changed the rapid deceleration that comes with engine braking to a more gentle coasting.

That said the engine braking characteristics are very different between the 650 and the 400 largely because of the very different engine and drivetrain config. (However we have come to understand that the engine braking will also vary between Lardies too and it is affected by idle speed settings).
 

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Yes. After putting more miles on my 650 with the idle set to 1200 rpm, I have to agree with Norman's assessment that higher idle speed does reduce the engine braking. Engine braking was more pronounced when my idle was set at 1100 rpm. You still don't want to "chop" the throttle unless you want the engine breaking effect though. You need to develop different throttle habits to ride a 650 smoothly.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Norm or anyone else that cares to chime in...
I understand what you are saying about the 400 auto braking similar (but different) than the 650.. But in all the reading I've done lately, I don't recall (or remember) anyone with a 400 complaining about the auto braking. But I have read numerous folks complaining about the 650. Can you comment on that.

Also, as a motorcycle rider, I really don't see why the complaints about the auto braking or the lack of brake lights when auto braking in the first place. How is it different from a motorcycle when you let off the throttle on the motorcycle and use engine braking to slow you down? Except of course on the motorcycle you can select which gear to use to slow down, and use the clutch if slowing down too much. Well I guess I may have just answered my own question about auto braking but not about the brake lights or lack of. Thanks. Bill..
 

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Bill - I agree with you! :)

I guess the reason for nil complaints with respect to the 400 and engine braking is because it is much less severe than the 650.

As far as comparison with a motorcycle with conventional gears of course these CVT machines provide a double whammy in the effective braking applied on throttle roll off. Let me explain, assuming we are talking Svelte and a Lardy in Auto proceeding in AUTO at say 40 mph (both machines will be in high ratio and equivalent to 5th or 6th on a geared bike) as soon as you roll off - the ratios 'change down' immediately, providing ADDITIONAL transmission braking in comparison to a geared motorcycle -where the only braking effect derives from the engine braking inherent with a closed throttle, while remaining in the same gear. Thus, the double whammy is - that the Svelte/Lardy design gives both engine and transmission braking. Specifically why the Lardy should be so much more pronounced than the Svelte is for bigger brains than I have to answer.

Statistically though, you need to remember that though this is a Burgman site the 650 has dominated sales over the 400 in North America and this may skew feedback here. It may also factor that people purchasing the 400 are moving up froma small scoot so see no great difference in the braking effect, whereas 650 buyers may be moving 'across' from a geared motorcycle so see a BIG difference. Just postulating here though! :dontknow:

Personally, I like the double whammy effect and find it useful, although I prefer how my Lardy behaves now with an idle speed of 1200rpm, when it was lower the braking effect was too severe. But anyway it is about adapting and exercising a bit more throttle control than maybe you would need to on a geared bike - after all you cannot compensate and ease matters by trading clutch and throttle!

Long live CVT - say I!! :lol:
 

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wilythek,
One other "point" you may want to take into concentration, scooter riders are a breed-un-to-them-self's 8)
Most it seems have little or no "big" bike experience. Even the 650 "engine braking" at any speed can not cause a rear wheel lock up. Down shift a "clutch" bike to second or first and pop it.
Now that's engine braking you can talk about long after your released from the hospital. :(
Most bike rider would like the effect on the 650 I think since we are down shifting while we stop anyway (most times).
If I had to guess I would ay the 650 is like leaving , or shifting a conventional bike to third gear (maybe a split between second and third).
But as Norman points out, the 400. almost nothing, in fact it was fun playing with the raised rpm, the bike seemed to never want to stop rolling. :)
Having owned my share of bikes I learned to adjust my riding style to the bike. If it work out well then I kept the bike a while, if not you can't very well change the design so you change the bike.
I ride first and foremost for enjoyment.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks Norm... appreciate the info.

Bill..

PS Do you folks in UK have sources for aftermarket accessories for the Burgman line? I've purchase accessories for my Kawasaki from a shop in England before... Although I don't have the Burgmans yet, I know that there is very few accessories for the machines in the states.

Also, anyone from Japan, I'll aske the same question as above. If you know of any websites (in english) that sell the accessories, I'd appreciate hearing.

Thanks again to all.

PSS I have my Kawasaki for sale on ebay, anyone interested in looking go to http://tinyurl.com/8kuq8
 

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Randy said:
But as Norman points out, the 400. almost nothing, in fact it was fun playing with the raised rpm, the bike seemed to never want to stop rolling. :)
[/i]
Randy:

Are you saying that on the 400 the braking effect is virtually eliminated if the RPMs are raised (to about 1200)?

Ken
 

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Ken OBSC wrote
Are you saying that on the 400 the braking effect is virtually eliminated if the RPMs are raised (to about 1200)?
Not 1200 rpm's, that close to normal .
The CVC is set to engage at about 2200. I had mine at 2000 for a while :)
 

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The difference between the engine breaking on the 400 and the 650 is very distinct. I have both scooters and never noticed the engine breaking on the 400, but notice very definate engine breaking on the 650.

Going down a steep hill on the 650 I can just close down the throttle and not have to use the brakes at all unless I want to come to a full stop. On the 400 I have to use the brakes.
 

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I would think the engine braking is more severe on the 650 simply because the engine is bigger, i.e., more braking power.

I am also assuming that the reason the engine braking on the burgs is so noticeable, is because on a motorcycle, if you chop the throttle in say, 4th gear, you get 4th gear engine braking.

With the burg, if you chop the throttle, the revs drop to 1100 rpm and the computer gives you "1st gear" engine braking, immediately, at least it feels that way.

The effect is minimized if, as Pauljo says, you learn to finesse the throttle, not chop it.
This is very good for cornering control too, smoother.

I use my brakes very little, unless the light turns yellow suddenly, or a cage driver does something stupid in front of me.

Brake shoes should last a long time on these machines. :wink:

Sometimes when slowing rapidly using engine braking, I will blip the left brake lever slightly (almost like clutching down), just to give the cages behind me some warning, because the burg WILL scrub off speed rapidly with just engine braking alone.
Don't want to get rear ended because they didn't see any brake lights.:roll:
 

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Discussion Starter #12
On my cruisers I have the habit of flashing the brake lights 3 times when I start slowing down.
 

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Having been a long time atv rider, I have had a little longer acquaitence with engine braking. Most cvt trannies on the smaller more basic atvs had engine braking only for a short time when you backed off the throttle. Once the pullies returned to their neutral positions you lost the braking and they freewheeled (that is how it felt on the 400 Burgman to me). You could blip the throttle some and prolong the braking, but it wasn't all that strong. When they started using cvt on all the big heavy 4X4 atvs, engine braking became a big issue so everyone wanted it. The manufacturers went about it in 2 ways. They added a one way clutch that kept the belt engaged or they used an electronically controlled system to keep it engaged. The 650 is, of course, an electronically controlled system. To me it feels like a 2nd or 3rd gear downshift like mentioned before. I have definitely skidded the back tires with the engine braking on my 4X4 atv, it will slow you down to 1-2 mph on a down hill that you can hardly walk down! I really appreciate the release of the tranny at 10 mph on the 650, otherwise it would be a lot harder to control where you stopped instead of rolling up to the stop sign.
 

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